October 10, 2006
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The Bible study this Sunday was given by Maria Sultan and it is incredible~
Maria pointed out that to praise God in His sanctuary is no small thing. The dancers who danced before Maria spoke did a wonderful job with the song “How Beautiful”, and it moved the congregation. Maria then quoted Psalm 27:4-6 One thing I have desired of the LORD, that will I seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in His temple, for in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion; in the secret place of His tabernacle He shall hide me, He shall set me high upon a rock. And now my head shall be lifted up above my enemies all around me; therefore I will offer sacrifices of joy in His tabernacle; I will sing, yes, I will sing praises to the LORD.
She then directed us to James 4:6 But He gives more grace, therefore He says: “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
You need to believe you hear from Him, believe God specifically for your situation. God will redeem time but we must stop wasting time. We cannot just complain. If we are facing a situation we have to discern what is going on about the situation, pray about it, and if necessary repent of anything that is stopping the Holy Spirit from responding. We want to get it right.
How many people do not want God to resist you. Grace is the operant word in the Kingdom. God will show up, open doors, under one condition —when you are humble.
James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Submit implies a ranking – in the military there are people who are below you in rank.
In the Kingdom, God is above, I am under. When we have God in the right place in our lives – above us, then we can resist the devil and the devil takes his ranking below our feet. But in order to put the devil in his place, we have to be in the right position under God.
When the Bible says “Draw near to God,” remember it is the lesser who draws closer to the greater. We submit to God.
The Bible talks a lot about submission. We are to submit to God, submit to our husbands. Maria said when she heard that she had to submit to her husband it sounded like a negative but turned out to be a great positive. But the Word of God is true through all generations. And the Bible also tells husbands to love their wives the way Christ loves the Church. Children are to submit to their parents, and we are to submit to authority. God is patient with us as we work this out.
Of course, we also need to consider that we should marry the person God has planned for us. We need to select a church that is the right church for us so that we can submit to the pastor who is our spiritual head under Christ. When we are submitted we will experience peace, joy, intimacy, and refreshing. The anointing flows through the person above you. Submission is not always easy for us to do.
Of course it is important to be in the right pasture. God will tell us where to be if we ask Him. These days the Church is going nuts – it is not in order. We have to check everything we hear with the Word of God. Sometimes people who state that they are speaking for the church are not getting their revelation from God. Sometimes they imply that only THEY get the real and absolute truth. We must stay with what the Word says. Make sure what they are saying lines up with the Word of God. If they are picking thoughts that do not line up with the Word of God, do not listen.
Maria had gone to a Benny Hinn conference and came back with a few facts. 96% of all preachers are in America and they are preaching to 4% of the population of the earth. Something is very wrong with that. Also Benny Hinn pointed out that people are to watch Israel for that is the prophetic clock.
Pastor Hinn then talked about the different kinds of churches that are around.
1. Those who believe the Bible – that is the remnant church.
2. Those who reject the cross – that are infiltrating the church with new ideas of salvation without the cross. That don’t want to deal with the blood of Christ. They want to make their own theology, pick and choose what they want to believe and reject the rest. Change God’s word to fit their lifestyle. Who teach that healing, deliverance, and the gifts of the spirit are not for this day and age. This church is so into themselves and what they feel is relevant. If you read 1 and 2 Timothy you will get an idea of what this kind of church is becoming. They are teaching how to stay successful, make money, and emotional responses and feelings are prominent. It is a church without blood salvation, it is divided on issues like the rapture. They want visions and revelations – the more esoteric the better.
3. Those who totally reject Jesus. They do not want to hear about Jesus, and will sue you if you mention Jesus.When we are Jesus’ nothing can snatch us out of His hand. Jesus is the reflection of the Father, the Father is interested in healing, deliverance, salvation. Jesus was born of a virgin, was God and man, died for our sins, was raised from the dead. Is seated at the right hand of the Father.
What we need to do to assess a church is to see if they are leading you to Jesus, if they care about the lost, and if they give prominence to the Word of God rather than their own doctrines. If we get a check in our spirit, make sure that they are really teaching God’s Word. We are not to be moved by titles, or wild claims. We need to be steadfast in the Word of God.
Genesis 11 (Which talks about the Tower of Babel) This tower of Babel was built after the Flood when God preserved the remnant through Noah and his family. Then God gave Noah the command to spread out throughout the earth, but they chose to disobey God and remained in one spot.
Genesis 11:4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”
Many in the Church today are doing the same thing with the Church, trying to make a name for THEMSELVES. We have to ask ourselves why there are so many denominations? Why are we so different in doctrine?
Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.
The problem is that the people wanted to make a name for themselves and their language. But there is only one language that will stand the test of time – only one language that matters. THE WORD OF GOD. There is only one eternal nation – ISRAEL. When we want to know what hour it is in the prophetic clock, what is going on in the world, we have to watch Israel. The plans that those on earth wanted to make at the time of Babel were evil plans. The devices they considered were evil, and there was no end to what their imaginations can conceive. (Heather’s note – pretty much the same thing is going on today).
Genesis 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
It was the mercy of God that brought on this confusion of language. For if that had not happened we would be sharing the same fate as satan in Isaiah 14:12-15 How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart; I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. Yet shall you be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.
This prophesy of Isaiah comes 170 years before Babylon crushed Israel, and today we still have the spirit of Babylon on earth. The second group of churches mentioned above has a spirit of babylon – of confusion.
Jesus will separate the wheat from the tares, the wheat will be kept and the tares will be thrown into the fire. In our Churches we have both wheat and tares, and God will judge by our fruit. It is not our job to judge each other to see who we think is wheat and who we think is tares. We don’t have that level of discernment. (Heather’s note: the tares was a plant called the Bearded Darnell, and when it is growing it looks exactly like wheat, the only time you can tell the difference is when harvest time comes – the wheat produces wheat berries, the bearded darnell produces nothing – so God will then separate them. If we try to separate before harvest, we may throw out good seed with the bad). Jesus also talked about separating the sheep from the goats. What we need to do is repent of our own tare activities. We cannot judge others, but we can judge ourselves and repent of anything that is not of God.
When we are in the right pasture we must submit, to Jesus and to our pastors. When they speak a word of correction, we must be humble and submit even if we disagree in the flesh. When we are under someone who really operates with the unction of the Holy Spirit we can trust their perceptions. (Heather’s note, of course if we are in the wrong pasture, being fed the wrong word, submission must be to God). If I am in the wrong pasture, I have to go to a place where I can submit.
Numbers 16:1-2 Now Korah the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, with Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men and they rose up before Moses with some of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, representatives of the congregation, men of renown.
These men questioned the authority of one whom God appointed over them – they were leaders of the congregation, men of renown.
Numbers 12:3 Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth.
Moses was not lording it over the leaders of the congregation – he was humble. Yet they were questioning what God was telling them through Moses.
Numbers 16:3-4 They gathered together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “You take too much upon yourselves, for all the congregation is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them. Why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD. So when Moses heard it, he fell on his face:
The “leaders” thought that they were just as spiritual as Moses and could do leadership too – they questioned Moses’ authority. But Moses was HUMBLE, he got His authority from God and did what God told him to do in everything but one thing – he struck the rock when God told him to speak to the rock. Moses was such a humble man of God that when they questioned his authority he did not fight back, did not puff out his chest, he fell on his face and interceded for the people. Today in the second type of church people are puffing themselves up claiming everyone is holy, and all are hearing from God – but this is not true.
Verse 5-9 and he spoke to Korah and all his company saying, “Tomorrow morning the LORD will show who is His and who is holy, and will cause him to come near to Him. That one whom He chooses , He will cause to come near to him. Do this: Take censers, Korah and all your company, put fire in them and put incense in them before the LORD tomorrow, and it shall be that the man whom the LORD chooses is the holy one: You take too much upon yourselves, you sons of Levi. Then Moses said to Korah, “Hear now, you sons of Levi, “Is it a small thing to you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to Himself, to do the work of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to serve them,
Moses told the assembled rebellious ones that God would point out whom He chose to be the holy one. And that the Levites were out of order because God had already chosen them to come near to Him, to serve Him in the tabernacle. They had their position and place. They were trying to be what they were not supposed to be and do.
How many times have we tried to do what we are not supposed to do? We can so easily deceive ourselves through pride. Obadiah 3-4 The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who dwell in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; you who say in your heart, “Who will bring me down to the ground?” Though you ascend as high as the eagle, and though you set your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down” says the LORD.
If you continue reading you would see that God accepted Moses and the sons of Korah were sucked down into the earth. Their rebellious attitude brought their downfall.
When our flesh is in an uproar, we can take comfort to know that our pastor is higher placed than we are, and that God is higher than our pastor. When we put ourselves in the right position of submission, then we can begin to get our chaos into order and satan is then in his proper position – under our feet.
When you want to know what is wrong – check yourself out. If there are delays in what we are asking God, the problem is ourselves. We need to put ourselves into proper position. And also it is important to remember that there may be reasons for our delays – for example God may be wanting to develop areas in our lives that make us ready for the new position that He has for us. God may be wanting to have us have an attitude adjustment. God knows what is best for us. Many times the delay is because of us. He is a Holy God who loves us. We have to stay in order. God will tell us what we need to do to bring us in line with His desire for us. We have to be a doer of the Word and we need to be doing what God wants us to do, where He wants us to do it.
1 Corinthians 12:18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.
God wants us to spend time with Jesus, sometimes we are not to be acting out something, but just spending time in the Word of God. God can do anything at any moment, but He wants us to do right in His sight.
Callings, appointments and placements -we are all placed where God wants us, and not all are equal in rank – but all are accountable to God for doing what God has placed us to do. We are all equal in salvation, we are all loved and God has a ministry for us. God’s promises are for us all, God wants us all to prosper, and God wants us all healed. Sometimes God wants us to spend time alone with Him, with the Word. When we meet God we want Him to say we are acceptable, we want him to say “Well done.” We will be accountable for every idle word.
When we meet God, He will not care what title we have had on earth, how elevated we are on earth. He will care if we are doing what He wanted us to do. He will care what is in our hearts. We will stand before Him on our own, we cannot come to Him through someone else’s salvation or works. God will judge us individually.
We just want to line up with God’s will for us.
Hope you enjoy this teaching. It impacted me greatly and made me come home to honestly look at myself and repent of those things that keep me from fulfilling God’s desire. There are fleshly things that I need to hand over to God.
Heather
Comments (16)
Thank you for your comment. your site is wonderful as well
I love what you said, “God will redeem the time, but we must stop wasting time.” So true….a good encouragement….blessings! Christy
Humility is a source of power that has long been hidden from the church and it is time for the church to use it for the glory of His name! Submission to authority brings blessings in every possible way.God bless you sis. Great posting once again!
hi heather. yeah, i consider it a good thing to be accused of practicing christianity…lol. despite the implied sarcasm it feels good to know that someone thinks i’m trying to live like Jesus. the “poem” i referenced on my last post is actually the words to a song by jeremy camp titled ‘this is my desire’. very neat song and happened to fit appropriately into my study time. thanks for dropping by. btw, i do still read your posts… they are like mini novels everyday
. Dan.
96% Preachers preaching to the 4% of the population of the world! This is an interesting information! But it is sad that inspite of these many preachers, our country is still on the downward slide! We might be the richest and strongest militarily and leader in technology and all the modern advancement, but we are lagging behind when it comes to spiritual things. We have to keep praying for America and its leaders. If we can’t pray in schools how can we expect God to bless and protect our children. They are our future and we have let a few handful of people yank away from under their feet the only strong foundation that will make them and our country strong.
Sadly, if you misunderstood what I wrote, I apologize. You need to go back and reread it from that perspective and not your preconceived notion. Not one time did I ever say I did not believe in Spiritual gifts nor the use of them within the church. In fact, if you go to my church’s web site you will find extensive teaching on the subject and a spiritual gifts survey. You immediately thought I was disagreeing with you. I was trying to show you the correct context of Corinthians and what Paul teaches there. Again, you misunderstood because you want to “prove” that gifts exist. That was never what I discussed. I discussed the context of Paul’s letter, what he wrote, and why he wrote it. In fact, most of the Christian church agrees with the interpretation I gave you. I did it as a means of contextualization. Perhaps this is why the church at Corinth and Paul had such a problem. There were those who misunderstood what Paul taught about Spiritual gifts because they were more concerned over their own feelings than correct theology? The church struggled over this issue and had a misconception of what the gifts meant.
My main question would be, “Why were you so quick to take offense at what I wrote?” Again, no where did I disagree that Spiritual gifts are not true or valid. Your ramblings about Scripture being the same yesterday today and tomorrow has no bearing on what I wrote. When we have a theology that teaches us to “follow God’s promptings” instead of what we know to be true from the Word of God as it is actually taught, then we can swiftly fall into error just like the Corinthians did. They thought that if they displayed the gift, it must be from God. This is simply not true as I related to you concerning Buddhists and Mormons who display the very same manifestations. How do you know what you receive is from God or not? Your feelings? The gift? We are to use what we have learned from Scripture. You misuse and misconstrue passages, like when you wrote about Paul saying: “I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied: for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. That does not sound like Paul is saying – don’t speak in tongues, but rather that he wished everyone spoke in tongues.”
Paul is using a common Greek argumentative style. If you did not know that, it is easy to think what you did. This is why you have to read and know the context of what Paul is writing. Context also means understanding some of the usage of the original language style. He is NOT supporting the fact that everyone SHOULD speak in tongues but the fact that if it was so great and cool as the Corinthians thought, then he wished everyone did! He enjoyed his own usage of a personal prayer language and would have everyone experience it as well. But there needed to be proper and correct edification (building up of the body of Christ) which the Corinthians were not doing, and someone who could correctly interpret the known language (tongue) being spoken when it was used in a worship service. They were confusing their prayer language and the prophecy of speaking forth the word of God in tongues to the whole church. Paul wanted to set them straight. In fact, they placed a greater emphasis on the personal experience of garbled gibberish instead of what it was supposed to actually be — a known language. Like Greek, Phoenician, or some other “tongue” of that day.
And by the way, prophesy does mean, “speak forth.” It meant literally to speak forth the Word of God, not some quasi semi non-intelligent meandering about the world ending or some such nonsense, like many think it does today. What did the Old Testament Prophets speak? The very words of God. “Thus saith the Lord,” was a common phrase. If they were wrong on even one point, what was to occur? They were to be stoned to death! Under the New Testament, the new covenant, where the Christian is not bound by the fact of the Holy Spirit being taken away from them when they are in sin, because He comes and seals, abides in, us when we are saved, prophecy always means speaking forth God’s Word: the gospel message. It is the Greek word – “propheteia.” Meaning, “speak forth.” It is two words combined: pro – “forth” or literally “before” and pheteia “speak.” If someone spoke to a crowd into a megaphone we would say they are propheteia. This is the context of the use of the word prophesy as it is used in the New Testament. And “tongue” is the word “glossae” which means “known language.” And what I wrote about its history and usage is correct.
This is why Paul relates about personal prayer language: “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.” (1 Cor. 14:2-5) Here Paul is saying that he wished everyone spoke in their own personal prayer language, not open gibberish. In fact, speaking forth the word of God was far more important for Paul than any prayer language or tongue!
I like what Wolford and Zuck say about this: “Speaking in tongues, at least in this passage, was to God. Prophesying was to people. In corporate prayer, all should participate, but they cannot if the prayer is unintelligible. Praying which pleases God is neither spiritless mind nor mindless spirit, but prayer in which the mind is tuned to the frequency of the Holy Spirit. Praying in tongues needs interpretation for the mind of the person praying to be actively involved and also for the congregation to be actively involved in worship.”
If a tongue is spoken out loud in a church setting, it must be a known language and not a prayer language. Paul said it only causes confusion for those who are not saved, just like it does now in our day and age. You can disagree with me that the word “tongues” means a known language, but your interpretation is incorrect and not consistent with church history, Greek usage, Greek language, and the rest of Scripture where the word is used.
You wrote some meanderings about: “In Paul’s Day what was the trumpet – it was the shofar and it was to call the faithful to worship, to warn of danger, to call to battle, and there will be the last trumpet when God calls His people to Himself. It was not the Roman military trumpet that Paul was talking about – Paul was a Levite of the Levites. Sure seems to me, even in the above translation that Paul is saying that he is using BOTH. And so are we to use BOTH. But the Church seems to want to stay with their own understanding. I am sorry, but what needs to be going on in the Church is not about us, but about what God wants. We who want to control the movement of God will insist that everything is handled to OUR UNDERSTANDING. I sure wonder what would happen if we let God do what God can do and not limit it by our own understanding and doctrine. Shouldn’t He be given the upper hand? So often in churches God isn’t given freedom to move – church is so structured – three hymns, a fifteen minute to half hour sermon, a closing hymn, a call for salvations. What if God wanted to have church for three hours and not one hour? Most would not be able to fit that into their schedules. What if God wants 16 songs, or three hours of songs? No, we are putting too much of ourselves into our worship of God. We need to be looking to God, hearing from God, and doing God’s will. We need to obey not just the parts of the Bible that we are comfortable with, but the WHOLE BIBLE. We can no longer afford selective reading, selective worship.”
Interestingly, these exact arguments are always used by those who want an “experience” rather than actual faith. Faith is not an experience, emotion, or feeling. Certainly these can come from our faith, but they are not faith, nor are they true worship. Worship comes from a person who consciously focuses on God. Faith is an act of will. Corporate Worship in the Old Testament through the New Testament was always highly structured. The reason? There were always folks who would rather focus on the feeling they received rather than what God was actually doing. This is why Paul wrote: “Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?… Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.” (1 Cor. 14:6, 8-12)
So, if the warning, the trumpet call, was sounded and no one could understand it, what good was the blast, ie… the message? The Gospel message must be clearly spoken to a lost and dying world. When we speak in tongues because we enjoy doing it for ourselves, we are in sin. Tongues spoken in worship always is to be the Word of God clearly understood by someone who can interpret the known language being spoken so those who hear it can understand it and be saved. Remember the original Pentecost?
“Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers… For God is not a God of disorder but of peace… Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. (1 Cor. 14:22, 33, 39-40)” By the way, the word “orderly” literally means “arranged in a dignified way.” It was used to mean structure in worship. Worship was to be orderly and structured. Why? Because God is never the God of confusion. If you just go with the “flow of God,” who then decides what is of God and what is not of God during worship? It can become disruptive and disorderly, which is exactly what was happening at Corinth. In fact it had gotten so bad, they were unwilling to discipline those in sin.
So, if you strongly believe the Word of God, what do you do with Paul’s writing: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church”? Now, do not be mislead, I am writing this just to tease or tweak you a bit. However, if you take Scripture seriously, then what do you do with this passage? If you say there was a problem within the Corinthian church with the women misusing spiritual gifts, you would be correct. And Paul wanted to address that issue. I stand by what I wrote you about this letter: “Context, context, context… Why did Paul write his letters to the Corinthians? Because they were so messed up in their theology, fellowship, use of spiritual gifts, and how they simply did church. The main culprits? Women who misused the church, men who were in adultery, and selfishness. The chapters on Spiritual gifts was never meant to be a guide book on them but an argument against the misuse of them.” This is a correct interpretation.
Hope you are having a Great Tuesday! ……In Christ’s Love…..Monic
I enjoyed reading this..and it makes me think..
Thank you for your kind comments..
A hug,
lucy
RYC: You said: “Sadly, if you misunderstood what I wrote, I apologize. You need to go back and reread it from that perspective and not your preconceived notion. Not one time did I ever say I did not believe in Spiritual gifts nor the use of them within the church. ”
Actually I was pointing out that tongues is one of the spiritual gifts. Perhaps you too are reading what I wrote with preconceived notions.
I am not going to quote all of your long tome for that ties up a lot of space. I do know why Paul wrote the letter, but I still feel you are trying to crunch what he was saying into your belief system.
You say: “ In fact, most of the Christian church agrees with the interpretation I gave you. I did it as a means of contextualization. Perhaps this is why the church at Corinth and Paul had such a problem. There were those who misunderstood what Paul taught about Spiritual gifts because they were more concerned over their own feelings than correct theology? The church struggled over this issue and had a misconception of what the gifts meant.”
Perhaps most of the Christian church does say what you are saying, but because most say it does it mean that it is correct? In my kids school most say the earth evolved by evolution – but we know God created the earth. But most say it. Again I will state that there are those who misuse spiritual gifts, there are those who misuse tongues, there are those who act super spiritual at church and go home and terrorize their families behind closed doors. There are many people who have an outward appearance of spirituality, but no real relationship with God. I am not judging that, but I also know that spiritual gifts INCLUDING TONGUES is used properly in churches and that the fruit of that is salvations, remarkable healings, and real life changes. When these gifts, including tongues are used to glorify God, and point to God, and worship God, and done in order, and when they produce fruit I accept them. I know that the church today accepts some of the spiritual gifts, they can believe for salvation, and certain gifts that “make sense” but not ones that don’t “make sense.”
I still believe that praying a prayer to God to ask Him to show you more about tongues is a good suggestion.
RYC: You asked: “My main question would be, “Why were you so quick to take offense at what I wrote?” ”
aul is using a common Greek argumentative style. If you did not know that, it is easy to think what you did. This is why you have to read and know the context of what Paul is writing. Context also means understanding some of the usage of the original language style. He is NOT supporting the fact that everyone SHOULD speak in tongues but the fact that if it was so great and cool as the Corinthians thought, then he wished everyone did! “He enjoyed his own usage of a personal prayer language and would have everyone experience it as well. But there needed to be proper and correct edification (building up of the body of Christ) which the Corinthians were not doing, and someone who could correctly interpret the known language (tongue) being spoken when it was used in a worship service. They were confusing their prayer language and the prophecy of speaking forth the word of God in tongues to the whole church. Paul wanted to set them straight. In fact, they placed a greater emphasis on the personal experience of garbled gibberish instead of what it was supposed to actually be — a known language. Like Greek, Phoenician, or some other “tongue” of that day.”
Because I answered you point by point does not mean that I take offense at what you wrote. If I took offense at what you wrote I have a wonderful keys at the bottom of my page called “Delete” and “block.” That is the ultimate action I can do if I take offense at what you are writing. If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t have responded. The fact that I responded is proof that I have not taken offense.
You said: “Your ramblings about Scripture being the same yesterday today and tomorrow has no bearing on what I wrote.”
Perhaps you consider what I stated as ramblings, but I think it has great bearing on what you wrote. When God says something in the Bible it is good forever – and when Jesus says that in His Name we can…. I believe it. I do not pick and choose that this gift is in action today, but that gift was only for the apostles in Jesus’ time.
You ask: “How do you know what you receive is from God or not? Your feelings? The gift? ”
I think I answered that, perhaps you did not see what I wrote- you know it is from God if the thing that you receive points a person to God. If it builds up the speaker’s ego, if the person goes away amazed at what YOU do or what YOU know, then it is not of God. If the person, like when Jesus did a healing, walks away praising God – good chance it is of God.
You say: “We are to use what we have learned from Scripture. You misuse and misconstrue passages, like when you wrote about Paul saying: “I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied: for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. That does not sound like Paul is saying – don’t speak in tongues, but rather that he wished everyone spoke in tongues.”
You say:
I think that is EXACTLY what I said – that there were two kinds of tongues, one for personal edification and one for corporate prophesy (foretelling & forthtelling). And you are right, the Corinthians were misusing that. Paul corrected them, but He did not say – do not ever speak in tongues. And you are right, he said it was so cool to speak in tongues that he wished everybody did – and he did wish that – who wouldn’t want the Body of Christ edified which is what our private prayer language does.
You Said: “And by the way, prophesy does mean, “speak forth.” It meant literally to speak forth the Word of God, not some quasi semi non-intelligent meandering about the world ending or some such nonsense, like many think it does today. ”
I agree, if someone is doing the above that is wrong – but that does not mean that there are others who are not speaking forth the word of God with the criteria that the Spirit and the Word MUST agree and we must discern. But I think your statement above sounds rather like you have a preconceived notion that all prophesy is hogwash.
You say: “Here Paul is saying that he wished everyone spoke in their own personal prayer language, not open gibberish. In fact, speaking forth the word of God was far more important for Paul than any prayer language or tongue!”
I agree that speaking forth the word of God in congregation is most important – but open gibberish????
You quote: :I like what Wolford and Zuck say about this: “Speaking in tongues, at least in this passage, was to God. Prophesying was to people. In corporate prayer, all should participate, but they cannot if the prayer is unintelligible. Praying which pleases God is neither spiritless mind nor mindless spirit, but prayer in which the mind is tuned to the frequency of the Holy Spirit. Praying in tongues needs interpretation for the mind of the person praying to be actively involved and also for the congregation to be actively involved in worship.””
I agree in part – unintelligible corporate prayer is not to be desired – that is why interpretation – but who is to say that gibberish (as you call it) cannot mean something in God’s economy – and that it can be interpreted.
You quoted me regarding the shofar, then commented:
“Interestingly, these exact arguments are always used by those who want an “experience” rather than actual faith. Faith is not an experience, emotion, or feeling. Certainly these can come from our faith, but they are not faith, nor are they true worship. Worship comes from a person who consciously focuses on God. Faith is an act of will. ”
What judgmental language – you are presuming about me things that are not true. Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I agree faith is an act of will – It is choosing to believe when the external circumstances may not always agree with what God’s Word says – you choose to have faith in God. Believe me I know faith is not an experiece, emotion or feeling – those are in the realm of the physical, and once something manifests in the physical you do not have to have faith for it, it is there. Worship is focusing on God, not on ourselves. I have faith to believe that all that the Bible states is there for me is there – even if it doesn’t make logical sense or sounds like gibberish to some.
You state: “Corporate Worship in the Old Testament through the New Testament was always highly structured.”
I would love to see chapter and verse for that statement. There are some things that were structured – the temple worship, the sacrifices, the wasings and absolutions – but not all worship was highly structured – what about David dancing in front of the ark? What about Jesus breaking the Sabbath? What about Jesus’s men not fasting? That does not seem like highly structured. And if as you say: “The reason? There were always folks who would rather focus on the feeling they received rather than what God was actually doing.” then I would say that if they were focused on what they are feeling it is not worship - if they are focused on God, and worshipping God it isn’t about feelings. Structure might get in the way of doing what God wants people to do.”
“You say: Tongues spoken in worship always is to be the Word of God clearly understood by someone who can interpret the known language being spoken so those who hear it can understand it and be saved.”
I disagree – if there is interpretation of tongues so that those who are unsaved can understand, then there is no error. And again there are two types of tongues – tongues for personal edification and prophesy – and tongues do not just bring salvation – but they can also bring correction or edification to a believer during a service.
You say: “If you just go with the “flow of God,” who then decides what is of God and what is not of God during worship? It can become disruptive and disorderly, which is exactly what was happening at Corinth. In fact it had gotten so bad, they were unwilling to discipline those in sin.”
That is what the Pastor is for – to make sure that the service flows the way God wants it to flow, and does not become disorderly.
You say: :The chapters on Spiritual gifts was never meant to be a guide book on them but an argument against the misuse of them.” This is a correct interpretation.”
I agree that Paul does not want them misused – but so often what is meant to prevent misuse also is a good guidebook.
Heather
I read today’s entry and was deeply touched by it.
Actually, I am forming lessons to take with me to a preaching trip to Argentina this coming week — many of the verses and/or thoughts were wonderful add ons to what I was putting together (over time through study and prayer).
I will admit , I don’t always take the time to read your entire entry because of my own time frames needing to be kept; however, every now and again I see one that stands out, I read it, and I am glad I did.
I will say too that — having read your testimony — seeing your past life and knowing what a huge struggle you must have had with the forces of darkness, it is the grace of God that has led you to see the importance of submitting yourselves to the guidance and teachings of others. The enemy gave you great power and that could have led to a life time of pride…I thank God you went from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to choosing to sit at the feet of the Lord in humble submission to his knowledge and wisdom!
Hi Heather. It’s been awhile and I wanted to stop by and let you know that you are appreciated. I’m glad you’ve pursued with teaching as I see God really uses you.
He’s been stretching me into different areas of ministry which has been calling for more of my time for work and study, but I wanted to stop by and let you know that you are definately in my thoughts.
May God continue to bless you through this talent in the way that you share His Word with others.
Johnna
hi heather i just wanted to say hi and that i was thinking of you love shelly.
Hi Heather, Some good words on church. So many preachers now dows are not true pastors but hirelings. They seem to be interested in growing their churches as if they were businesses.
Enjoyed seeing the family pics you posted as well….A beautiful family. Blessings.
Hi Heather, I appreciated you comments on worship in my two previous postings. Because of the interesting comments, I made a final posting if you are interested.
rick
Worship: Does Our Worship Have the Scent of Blood, or the Aroma of Incense?
Is Worship Aesthetic Reverence or Holy Awe?
Worship Part 3
Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. There is a profound danger in reviewing or criticizing someone’s worship or leadership in worship. Perhaps I have been overly critical. But I only do this because I want my brothers and sisters to be moved by Holy power, not an artistic experience. My thoughts may be burned with fire on the last day—I hope and pray not.
After reading your comments, maybe I am over-analyzing worship and making it too complicated. Jesus received, without criticism, the worship of the Samaritan leper, and Jesus didn’t prescribe a proper method of worship. And as Samuel John and others pointed out, the state of the heart is the key—and no one can properly judge someone’s heart. The free, thankful, unconscious offering of our best to Jesus is always received and should never be criticized.
However, I am frustrated when worship leaders describe the WORSHIP EXPERIENCE they want to create, and then adjust the atmosphere to create an emotional balloon—deeply moving, but without substance. I know they are sincere and mean well. At times the same leader hits the mark; but at other times it seems a performance–the Holy seems absent. My best description of the EXPERIENCE he creates is AESTHETIC REVERENCE—a mood of calm, passionate, overwhelming veneration. It is the same mood I feel this when I listen to great music or look down from a majestic mountain at the beauty of God’s creation. Aesthetic reverence is a proper, Godly feeling. But that BEAUTIFUL FEELING, that aroma of incense, doesn’t seem to capture the essence of Jesus’ offering on His cross, the worship in Revelation 5, or the Leviticus sacrifices. Holy awe is not same as aesthetic reverence.
Samuel John and others made another important point: The fundamental aspect of worship is a daily-life given over to God, and music is just one-way to do that. If a worshipper loves God and uses music to glorify Jesus, then that is true worship. How could I argue with that? But I do not wish to define WORSHIP so broadly that we cannot discuss what makes musical worship different than an OFFERED LIFE. There is a difference between leading a congregation in worship and SINGING TO JESUS. One is the joy of my soul, spilling out in song. The other is a work, a Holy ministry that helps people to bring their lives under the command of the King.
Too often leaders are INTO IT, singing to God’s glory–while the congregation flounders. The leaders seem CONNECTED, but they are not bringing congregation into it. And if the congregation continues to lag behind, they adjust the atmosphere to help people let loose. Worship leaders have the obligation to serve people by opening the door to heaven, not to create a moving experience.
Just as the Levitical priesthood did what the congregation could not, leaders must assist their brothers in worship. The animal offerings in Leviticus were Hebrew worship. These offerings were necessary and distinct from daily obedience and thankfulness to God because they approached the Holy in a special way. And at times, the power of the Holy would literally consume the sacrifice.
This WORSHIP seems different than just doing my job for Jesus or loving my wife, as Jesus would have me. In a mystery, worship should connect me with the power of the Holy King who must rule my soul—who must consume me. Romans 12, tells us that the living sacrifice of our lives takes place when Holy power molds us. In view of God’s mercy we offer ourselves. This points back to prior chapters, which culminate in the doxology. Who knows His mind, His wisdom and His power…all things are from Him and in Him, in a way we will never understand. Singing this, I take off my shoes and get on my hands and knees. Like the sacrifice in Leviticus, something in me dies in this abasement. The rebellion, self-indulgence and foolishness that I refuse to admit, is suddenly apparent in a mystery of repentance and awe. My conscience is awakened to grief and joy.
Isaiah 53 describes the power of that mystery. Despised, forsaken, He bears our grief and transgression. He is a guilt offering to plead our case. Jesus’ offering is the final worship—that grounds all worship. A profound MORAL CHANGE takes place during worship. I want to give him everything I know He deserves, even though I resist Him. So I offer my song as a substitute for the life I know I should be living, just as the slain lamb in Leviticus and Genesis is a symbol of life given over to the Holy one. Worship should have the scent of blood, not the aroma of incense. This blood-offering represents a death to self, what my life should be–but is not. If the power of Isaiah 53 is absent, then the music is probably just a fine performance.
In my thirty-four years as a disciple, I have met four leaders whose worship always helped to bring me to the throne. They never had a performance-worship struggle. They never tried to create atmosphere. They helped me to be touched and molded by the Holy.
Interestingly, all of them were plagued to some extent by depression. I had the good fortune to pray on a weekly basis (before worship) with one of these leaders. He was always broken, always poor-in-spirit, and always in desperate need of Jesus. The stress of the day seemed to have driven out the peace and joy he knew he needed, but did not have. He always confessed his sin and failures. When he prayed and sang I heard the power of Isaiah 53–that grounded his worship and helped carry us into the Holy of Holies. (As an aside, my worship life needs to be clear enough, strong enough, and simple enough to not become dependent on the “right situation”, and “right leader”.)
Worship leaders live close to the cross. They know in practice, that anything good in their life came from God’s Holy power. They don’t have a method—their heart is an altar. They “bear in their body the dying of Jesus” and help connect us to the cross. Somehow the tone of their conscience becomes an ALTAR we all could use to rise-up to heaven. Like all sacrificial offerings, their worship is grounded on four things: (1) A frightening awareness and confession of darkness, selfishness, a bloated ego, and the need for approval; (2) The courage and resolution to move forward and put that broken, sinful life into the hands of Jesus; (3) Worship is powered someone beyond me; and (3) The realization that they owe Jesus everything because He is everything. Doing these things (often unconsciously), their worship strengthened us so we could more faithfully followthemaster.
Be very careful when you are quick to say something like, “Perhaps most of the Christian church does say what you are saying, but because most say it does it mean that it is correct?” Because, yes it does. Several thousand years of theological study, interpretation, and church history certainly does make it correct. We cannot just believe what we feel instead, even if it seems right at the time. It is the same reasoning Satan used with Eve. He appealed to her emotions and what she felt, not what God had actually told her.
Why would you need to pray about tongues? If it is of God, then there should be no question whether you can display it or not. The question often comes from our human pride when we desire something that we may not need, have exeperienced, but want anyway. (Now, I am not saying you have not expereinced it.)
You may not have realized it, but you were not clear in what you wrote about Paul’s teaching on prayer language and the public use of tongues. You may have thought so, but it sounded like you were supporting the fact that everyone should speak publicly in tongues. This is simply not true nor beneficial for the church. In fact, it is not needed today as it was during Paul’s day, because we have God’s Word translated into so many languages already.
Much of what passes as “prophecy” in many churches that practice it today is gibberish. It is gibberish in that it makes absolutely no sense, disagrees with biblical teaching, or is actual guttural gibberish that is passed off as speaking in tongues or holy utterances. It is nonsense and ungodly. Gibberish is gibberish and believe me I have heard it before and experienced it firsthand. No amount of trying to coat it with spiritual god-talk makes it anything other than what it truly is: ungodly nonsense. Again, God is not the God of chaos but it logical and consistent even in His use of miracles. Never equate what Jesus did to what we are to be about now. Why? Didn’t Jesus say, “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (John 14:12)”? Yep, but you again have to look at the context. Jesus was not speaking about spiritual gifts or healings. He was pointing to His own resurrection, our faith in it, and then our trust in Him as we walk in Him daily. These are the “greater things.” Like when He told Thomas, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed (John 20:29).” And this is why Jesus angrily condemned the Jewish leader’s faulty thinking and weak faith, He related “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves (John 14:11).” But they could not even have enough faith to see that the miracles were from God. In fact, Jesus related “But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father (John 15:24).” He taught that “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah (Matthew 12:39).” The greatest miracle is our faith in His resurrection! This is why Jesus went on to say, “I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it (John 14:13-14).” We can do this as we trust in Him and walk in Him. Who gets the glory? God through our faith walk in Christ. The Son gives the Father the glory when we trust in Him and rely on Him. We can ask anything in His name, not to perform a miracle, but to do the will of God. Which is far greater than any miracle or healing. Could God’s will be a miracle? Sure. But the focus is never to be on the miracle or healing, it is to be on Jesus. This is where spiritual gifts used in church all the time as a means of trying to get some sort of Holy Spirit action going, gets into trouble. This is where the Corinthian church got into a mess.
Often, when folks cannot logically and consistently support their theological efforts, they resort to the trite argument of “God’s Word is eternal.” Yes God’s Word is, but not our convoluted thinking. Of course what they often mean is that, “My interpretation which does not follow what you believe, consistent biblical interpretation, or church history, but it just might be correct and you haven to discovered it yet.” Be very careful when using this kind of argument, cults use it all the time.
When I wrote that faith is not an emotion, you immediately allowed your emotions to think I said this about you personally. This is simply not true. I was stating a fact: “Faith is not an experience, emotion, or feeling. Certainly these can come from our faith, but they are not faith, nor are they true worship. Worship comes from a person who consciously focuses on God. Faith is an act of will.” This is absolutely true, rational, and not judgmental.
You also agreed with me when you stated that “if there is interpretation of tongues so that those who are unsaved can understand, then there is no error.” That is what I wrote as well. However, there has to be a correct biblical interpretation presenting the Gospel message, not personal whim, gibberish, or some mystical prediction.
David dancing in front of the ark was not corporate worship. Jesus breaking the Sabbath law was not corporate worship nor any kind of worship. You never read of Jesus or His followers doing anything that was out of order, chaotic, or outlandish during corporate worship where people were gathered together united and focusing on God. His men not fasting had nothing to do with corporate worship or any other kind of worship. Worship of God as a group of people who willingly go to the temple, synagogue, or later the church was highly structured. The individual’s worship practice was his own affair. This is why David, when chided by his wife for his dancing nude in public, told her basically it was none of her business – it was his and God’s. However, it was not corporate worship.
Yes the Pastor should be the one that helps the church to see whether it is in error or not. But the pastor is also bound by church history, correct biblical theology, and the Word of God. And God holds him accountable through his own people.
What I wrote you was to make you think more and to dig deeper into what you actually believe, how you can support it theologically through Scripture, and the importance of church history as well. Personal experience does not take precedence over these no matter how good it feels or marvelous it seems. Too often in our day and age we place greater significance on us than on God. We tend to equate God’s love for the world as revolving around “me.” While He is personal through Jesus, His ways are not our ways nor His thoughts our thoughts. If you believe God can do what He desires remember that he always acts according to the Word He has given us. If He didn’t how could we trust Him?
In His mercy.
Wow, I came here to visit and there was soooooo much information. A few weeks ago I went to the alter to Submit. Thanks have been happening. Yes, I need to know when I hear God. I am seeking God. I am going to pray to empty my vessel of hate, anger, sin, and then pray for God to fill it again with the Holy Ghost. Thank you for taking the time to post all this. It was all very interesting and impactive!