January 8, 2005
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Reading: Where is God when it Hurts? by Yancey.
Oh, I have finally reached the point where I drop kicked the book across the room the last time I tried to read it. The chapter on Job. Half way through it and I am beginning to see some red.
Previous chapter dealt with Jesus answering the Israelites about the death of those building the temple and who is guilty the blind man or his parents. The conclusion Yancey reaches is that “Suffering offers a general message of warning to all humanity that something is wrong with this planet, and that we need radical intervention (“Unless you repent…”}. But you cannot argue backward and link someone’s specific pain to a direct act of God.” p 84
I have a problem with the book of Job. I can see that God wants our love, and that the love is freely given.
p. 89 “Satan’s accusation that Job loved God only because ‘ you have put a hedge around him,’ stands as an attack on God’s character. It implies that God is not worthy of love in himelf; faithful people like Job follow him only because they are ‘bribed’ to do so. Job’s response when all the props of faith were removed would prove or disprove Satan’s challenge.”
Why must God remove a hedge of protection around Job just to defend his character to the fallen angel satan. And I have no problem with God letting property be destroyed, but the lives, the children. Come on, how much does it matter what satan thinks. Isn’t God big enough to not have to prove something to satan?
I also know that freely given love is important to God. No problem with that. Yacey’s contention is that with a world that is more fair, where people were more directed to interact with each other in a fair and equitable way because of God’s intervention is that, then love would not be freely given. My feeling is that Adam and Eve had a paradise and they chose to disobey God. Seems to me that God could have it both ways if he wanted to.
This is where I am, I am promising myself to read at least to the end of the chapter before drop kicking the book again.
Granted there is the passage in the Bible about the potter and the clay, and how the clay has no right to tell God what to do with the clay. If God wants to make a spitoon or a spiritual vessel, his choice. No problem with that. It is his clay after all.
In that vein, if God wanted to create me and subject me to a crappy life, fine. No problem with that. But then don’t tell me about free will, and how God wants to give me choice. Can’t have it both ways. We are either the clay or the game piece in God’s hands or we have free will to choose to be the clay or game piece. Either way, we are part of a game. I am tired of this game of life. Today I do not value life very highly, too much hurt, too much pain.
But when people tell me of God’s great love for me, when they say that God is in control, when they say that God cares about what happens to me, I wonder.
Yes, we turned the world over to satan. And satan does stuff, but God LETS him. God, if he is in control does not have to LET satan do anything. God could stop it if he wanted to. Some say that God made the Adamic covenent and after he gave the earth to Adam, then God could not take back control from satan when Adam gave it over to him. God is in control, God could have taken it back from satan, slapped satan’s hand and given it back to Adam for another try. A loving parent would have protected his children. Sometimes I think there are mixed messages about God, and maybe I am not getting it.
I am going to resolve this somehow, not sure how, but I keep searching. Some things just do not make logical sense. Please do not be irate, I mean God no disrespect, but in order to have a relationship with God I really need to understand exactly where things stand.
Heather
Comments (6)
You are really wrestling with some tough issues there and I applaud you for that. Wrestling with God takes a lot of courage and is going to leave us somewhat scarred – notice that when Jacob wrestled – he left with a limp!! But I also encourage you to pray about being able to rest in the mystery of God as well. We want so much to understand all there is about who God is and what He expects of us and bottom line is that we are just too human to fully comprehend. Free choice – or does God choice and make our life what it is – I am not so sure we will ever fully understand that. Faith has to step in and carry us over that abyss of “not knowing” It’s absurd to trust in something in we can’t understand or explain. Soren Kierkegaard in his book – Fear and Trembling talks of that absurdness as he examines the story of God telling Abraham to sacrifice his Son. Kirekegaard does a wonderful job of wrestlign w/ that tension but also of resting in the mystery. Keep wrestling and keep searching – we need to constantly be doign that, but also – Be Still and know that God is God. I wish you peace as you continue on this journey. May God Bless you as you search Him.
Jamie
Heather,
Thank you so much for letting me know that you were thinking of me. I have had a lot of obligations the past few days and havent had much comp time.
I love your honesty….God does not mind your searching for answers.
I wish I had more time to write now, but I will continue to think about these questions and issues and will continue also to walk with you through your questions and searching. That is what is so wonderful about Xanga, we can express our inner thoughts and feelings and journey with others as well that we would never have been able to run into outside of the net. :)
Oh sweet Heather.
There are no easy answers here. With what you have been through, pat answers just don’t work. I wish I had some profound words that could comfort you and give you peace, but I just don’t. I’m sorry, I can’t give you any more than what I’ve already shared with you. You don’t know how much I deleted already because nothing is good enough for you. Free will and free choice are so difficult to deal with, especially when your will has been so completely violated. You deserve so much better. But I’d rather see you angry at God and questioning Him than just completely giving up on Him.
{{{SQUEEZY HUGS AND MUCH LOVE}}}
Leigh Ann, thanks. Please don’t worry about not having right words to say, I don’t know if there are right words. I sure hope that I never gave you the impression that something wasn’t good enough.
Marlene, I think you are right about God not minding questions. When I raged at God a few years ago I got the distinct impression that He was glad I was raging at Him because for 40 years I never gave Him the time of day or a thought. I don’t think He would like me raging now, and I have apologized for my raging then. I struggle with these issues, but my goal is to resolve them.
Jamie, good luck with your sermon tomorrow. I know it will be great. Thanks for stopping by here. I am not at a point of having the faith to trust without knowing. There was way too much hurt to be there yet.
It is only two years in a few days since I said the sinner’s prayer, so I think I am still sort of a baby Christian. Today was not one of the stellar days of Heather. I got hit with some memories that knocked me down emotionally. I have been struggling to forgive those who caused the memories, and to let go of them.
Some days I can deal with Job better than other days, but I did get past that chapter and into a few new ones. The jury is out, and this puzzles me. Usually Yancey is an author that is helpful, I plan to finish this book and then maybe go to C.S. Lewis.
One thing that is helping, and probably will seem odd to you is that I am doing the Revelation Bible study, and I am finding it good to know that people are answerable to God. That there is an overall plan. I just hope that more change. One thing I am very grateful for is that God did persist until I came to Him. The odds were against that ever happening.
Please have a good and warm weekend. Our car is covered in ice, the storm that was to stop at noon is still storming.
Heather
Heather, I don’t know your story, but I do know that the hard places I have been thru in my life have made me stronger and for that I’m grateful.
The debate about God’s sovereignty vs. our free will is an old and complicated one, and, as it’s already been noted, there are no easy answers. One thing I’ve observed in the Bible, though, is that most of the passages that clearly teach God’s sovereignty are talking about those who are saved (e.g. Ephesians 1-2), while all the passages that clearly teach free will are talking about our choice to reject God’s salvation (e.g. Isaiah 53:6, Matthew 23:37, etc.).
C. S. Lewis writes, “There are only two kinds of people: Those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’” (The Great Divorce). George MacDonald has some good thought on this too. I’d post more, but I have to run.