January 2, 2005
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Forgiveness,
Everytime I think I have a handle on forgiveness I discover a new layer that needs to be forgiven.
I struggled so much with forgiveness. I knew my parents were wrong for what they did. I knew that the damage that they did was irreparable. How could I forgive them.
I guess for me the breaking point was when I realized that I had broken all Ten Commandments. I had had an abortion at a time when I justified it by realizing that I was still hurting from my past and was afraid that I would do to my kids what was done to me in abuse. I was afraid to have that child. Before I gave birth to my first son, I actually asked my therapist if he felt that I would perpetuate the abuse. He said that I wouldn’t and I believed him. Fortunately he was right. My kids know they are loved.
When I realized how much sin I was forgiven for, it was hard to withhold forgiveness from others. But at that time I sort of had a meter for forgiveness. How could a big sin be forgiven. It was when I realized that I had committed murder (the abortion) that I realized that I was no better than them.
A pastor’s wife and I talked once, and she pointed out to me that my parents were dead, and I was still carrying them around with me because of unforgiveness. It was not easy to forgive them though.
I spent 40 days of lent praying for my parent’s souls. And then I had to pray that I would be willing to forgive them. It was like pulling teeth. They had hurt me so badly. But then I had hurt others in my life as well.
I usually do not keep the memories of the past fresh and alive in my mind the way they have been these days. But my older sister holds memories so tightly that she never has forgiven my parents for what they did to her. In fact her voice becomes bitter and angry just talking about my parents. She has ended up with multiple surgeries, cancer and lots of health problems. I keep talking with her about forgiveness because she is hurting so much, but she will not.
When I finally told God that in obedience I had to forgive them, I began. But it seems that each day there is more to forgive, layers and layers like an onion.
But there was also a release with the forgiveness, less of a burden.
One pastor explained to me about sin, using an analogy of milk. That if you put one drop of chocolate syrup in the milk it is no longer pure milk. It may look white like milk, taste like milk, but it is not milk because of the drop of chocolate syrup. Some put in lots of syrup, some just a few, but either way it is no longer pure, it is tainted. It is the same with sin, there is no one who is not tainted with sin in some area of their lives. All are in need of forgiveness.
I know I needed forgiveness.
Where I can’t forgive, is to forgive myself for my reactions to what happened.
I also wonder what I would do if my abusers were alive. I was able to forgive my sister (who is alive) for the abuse she did to me, but I think I would have been afraid of my father, and it has to be a lot harder to forgive if the people are alive and still able to hurt you.
Forgiveness is really not for the abuser. It is really for the person who forgives. We can forgive and receive release, but the abuser is still answerable to God and the law for what they did.
There is more, but my husband needs the computer.
Thanks for “listening”
Heather
Comments (14)
Yes, yes, yes! And we can only forgive the abuser in our heart before God – unless and until the abuser asks for forgivesness. Then God directs/commands us to forgive them as well. But that can and likely will take some time. May be that is why He has you working it over so energetically now. So you will be ready when the time comes?
Take care, have a more joyous and prosperous New Year.
Actually, abortion isn’t murder (it’s legal.).
I’m not for abortion but I am pro choice.
And those who picket and shame those deciding to have it done…
I dislike that very much.
Because as the Ani Difranco lyrics go…
…They keep pounding their fists on reality
Hoping it will break
But I don’t think there’s a one of them
Lives a life free of mistakes…
But it goes to what you believe, too.
I believe in reincarnation not the ‘one shot’ deal.
As for forgiveness
I think we forgive not because we think they deserve it or want it
But because we need to
Otherwise we carry that hatred around with us
As you know
Thank you for the good wishes and the hug/ear
)
“That it helps because he is there 24/7. No one on earth can make that claim and mean it.”
True. I’m not an atheist, however. Spiritual rather than religious. Divinity is there for us all.
After all, when you get down to it… all religions are the same, pretty much.
God is god is god.
Everything is everything.
I’m glad too.
Take care ::hugs::
<3
Dear Whispers, I know that abortion is legal, but for me at this time it is still murder. It took the life of the life that was in me. It crushed me at the time, and it is one thing I have had a hard time to forgive myself for. The hurt inside was tremendous. I am not one to picket or shame, but if I could stop one person from suffering what I suffered, I would gladly do it. I do not condemn those who make that decision, and will love them all the same, but my heart breaks for them because I know what will happen years later down the road of life.
We seem to be such a convenient, throw away society. We are not careful with our lives and seem to want to dispose of what isn’t convenient. I did what I did with the best of intentions, and bought into the lie. That was until I had a miscarriage several years later of a child that was younger than the one I aborted, and because it happened at home, I got to hold that life in my hands, and I wept.
I have many friends who have also chosen abortions in their lives and are devestated by the results afterwards. We make decisions like that that we cannot take back, and I would most certainly have taken back that one decision if I could turn the clock backwards.
I used to ascribe to a theory, thou art god. And I too believed that all religions are like one, that there is no difference. Reincarnation also appealed to me. I don’t accept that theory anymore. I found the real thing. I wanted so much to include anyone into religion, to believe that all would find peace and comfort. But it is not so.
Of all the religious books that I have read, only the Bible holds together with consistency and does not contradict itself. There is much archeological evidence that proves the facts in the Bible. Jesus is the only one who ever rose from the dead. Where is Buddah, dead, where are other religious formers, dead. Where is Jesus, he certainly isn’t in the tomb. He rose from the dead.
Oh, Whispers, I pray you find peace. That you find comfort in a safe place, like with Jesus.
Hugs,
Heather
Great post! I love the honesty of feeling. As someone who has been through abuse I give you hope. Hope of God’s healing. It’s true we need to forgive. Forgiveness is not saying that what the person did was right. Forgiveness is not re-trusting that person that must be earned. Forgiveness means I’ll leave it in God’s hands. I won’t rehearse it over and over in my head. I won’t hold it against them. This frees me to go on and not be a prisoner to the past. It also frees me to make different choices with God’s help.
Forgiveness is a choice and a process. Journeling helped me get in touch with what needed to be forgiven and let go of. Then I needed to give it to God without taking it back. I’ll pray for you. It sounds like you have a wise pastor’s wife. blessings lala
The hardest thing about forgiveness is to forgive ourselves. but the best thing is to remember that God forgets that we ever did anything when we ask for forgiveness. That seems impossible to believe, but God actually forgets our sins as well as forgives them. He never brings them up again, we are clean in his sight.
I don’t mean to trivialize your experience… I’m just saying that denotatively speaking, murder is the wrong word. I also didn’t mean you in the picketing/shaming bit. I’m sorry if it came across that way. ::HUGE HUGS::
Reality is perception. To me, and the majority of the world not of a particular sect of Christianity, this is not the only way to scale a mountiain. I do not believe that not all can find peace and comfort. I believe reincarnation to be true, and hell just a scare tactic they like to use.
The thing is, divinity IS divinity no matter what name you ascribe to it. Why shouldn’t people be allowed to worship or celebrate their manifestation of it in whatever way they so desire?
You say that and you believe it. I don’t. I don’t think you can prove Jesus is in a state of heaven and Buddha in the ground. Ask a Buddhist. S/he’ll tell you the Buddha is not in a tomb but in either in Nirvana or in the process of returning or here now.
Nobody can prove their religion any truer than another. Nobody can prove a thing.
The Bible isn’t proof, I’m afraid.
I appreciate the thought, but you’re wasting your time if you think I’ll go back to Christianity…
You know how you said your heart wasn’t with the hippies?
Mine isn’t with Christianity. That isn’t who I am.
And I’m proud of it. I’m glad of it. Not that I’m saying Christians are bad — not at all.
You can believe I’ll end up in hell despite the life I’ll live.
I can believe we all go to the light because divinity loves us in spite of our “mistakes”
At any rate, I don’t want to start a theology debate because we won’t get anywhere.
And thank you. I hope it does have an end. ::hugs::
Actually, murder is the right word. It was “legal” for German’s to exterminate Jews in the 1930s, does that mean it wasn’t murder. It was “legal” to own slaves once (actually for most of human history), does that mean it wasn’t a violation of humanity. It was “legal” for the Romans to throw their unwanted babies on the trash heaps, does that mean it wasn’t murder. I’m afraid of people who cannot see the absolute morality in an issue like abortion on account of what man says is “legal”. There are many things that are “legal” in this world that hopefully someday soon God will judge the nations for. Equating the legality of abortion with the morality of abortion is reprehensible and shows a severe ignorance of history particularly concerning the things that shape people concept of right and wrong.
Whispers, I have to tell you that every word you have said, I said years ago. I believed it fervently, and felt how narrow-minded Christians are. I lived in a world of blackness, and less blackness, never the light of day or joy.
If ever you choose to explore this area, I would strongly suggest reading Lee Stoebel, who examined Christianity as if he were a lawyer trying to prove a case. He wrote The Case for Faith, and The Case for Christ.
God did give people the choice to worship as they want to. We have that freedom. My sorrow is that so many are choosing ways that are non-productive, that will lead to places in eternity that no one should want to go.
I too was proud that I wasn’t a Christian, I went so far as to hate God and Christians and to mock them. I was VERY involved in the occult. Was a priestess of a coven of 150, did divination, “healings” and many other branches of the occult. I felt sure that what you said was true, that there were many ways to worship divinity.
Problem for me was, there isn’t. It took me 40 years to learn the emptiness of the paths I took. I am praying that others do not make the same mistakes that I did or waste so much time in emptiness.
When you are hurting, it is sometimes hard to see through the pain. It is easy to reach for something, anything to ease the pain. To make things seem ok. In my case I rejected Christianity because of what so-called Christians did to me. It wasn’t Christ who did the hurt, it was those who mis-represented Christ
I love you, no matter what you profess to believe, but please know that I will keep praying for you, caring for you, and loving you. Praying that you come out of your pain and find joy.
Love,
Heather
Lisa, I have such a hard time leaving things in God’s hand. I tend to snatch it back. I think you are right, it is a process. Sometimes I wish it would all be just gone, cut out like surgery or something.
Brenda, I know the Bible says that God does not see our sins, but I act towards him as if I am covered in coal. It is hard to forgive myself. I guess maybe a good beginning is forgiving others.
Hagana, I think that in all areas of our lives it is easy to dismiss what is in error. We make excuses, for something as large as abortion, to justifying how we act towards others. I know that my eyes were clouded for a long time, and I did not see straight. Hopefully with love people do begin to see things different. That is my prayer at least. I see kids in my children’s school that have values learned from their parents that are so wrong. I keep praying that as I work with them, help them, and talk with them at a little seed is planted that will grow.
Heather
Hagana is quite incorrect. Once again, denotatively speaking, “murder” is inaccurate.
Thanks for the luck. I hope your year is great too.
)
I know you did believe it. Then you took up Christianity instead. Which is great, and I respect that you found what you were looking for. I just suggest that you not generalize… not everyone experiences this the same way you do. Christianity worked for you, but it doesn’t work for everyone. It isn’t meant to. Not everyone subscribes to the same beliefs and value systems. Christians are not the only ones who have tried other faiths only to return to this. It happens in other religions as well, people so sure Christianity was the right way only to find it as “empty” as you find other religions.
Religions are all valid. They all can provide something valuable and meaningful, from aethism to Christianity to Sufism. They are all merely steps. You gravitate to the one closest to where you are in your spiritual development.
I’m not saying Christians are narrow-minded. But that does seem to be the trend, at least among “Christians.” But again… it’s subjective, isn’t it? I’m sure there are plenty of Christians (your friend hanaga being one of them) who probably think I’M narrow-minded. Reality is perspective.
Honestly, I don’t understand the missionary need. I don’t understand why certain Western religions are SO intent on convertion people. And I think what gets to me even more is that they do so by fanning fear into the hearts of the doubtful… which is NOT a good reason to convert.
You want people to abandon their faith and take up yours? Show them the love of your god. Prove it to them. Tell them about your life with your god. But don’t present negative ideologies, and talk fire and brimstone. Don’t suggest they follow your faith in case their soul rests on that decision.
Your god is another manifestation of the same divinity. People think Hinduism is idolatry but the only people that think that… are outsiders. You talk to a Hindu and they’ll tell you something far different. I’m sure you might be thinking “Oh, well, of course! They won’t admit to worshipping idols!” But that’s the thing. YOU are the one that thinks that — not them. The same case could be made for you.
After all, the Christian faith isn’t a single god either. The holy trinity is three manifestations of the same divinity, no?
And to many… you aren’t worshipping divinity entirely. You’re worshipping a man.
If you mean Wicca, that’s a very gentle, spiritual religion. It’s pretty cool.
I hope you aren’t attributing my rejection of your religion as a result of my pain. I opted out before any of the pain or SD tendencies began.
It isn’t just “Christians” I disagree with.
I’m glad. I love you too, no matter what you profess to believe.
Dear Whispers, I am glad to hear from you! Glad that you can tolerate my religious bent. Please know that how Hagana approaches religion is not how I approach the same subject. He subscribed to my link, but I only knew of him through another site I subscribed to. I do not know him from Adam.
I guess when you are given a gift that is great, you want to share it. I know that others do not subscribe to Christianity, and in many cases I can understand that based on how some portray Christianity. My sister-in-law and her family were so condemning that I turned my back on Christianity for years because of their pharisetical (sorry for spelling) behavior. There is only so much condemning you can take without turning away. I think that what is more important is the relationship with Christ and God that is more important than the religion Christianity.
If you ever want an interesting read, may I suggest a book called The Beautiful Side of Evil. It was an eye opener for me. The woman who wrote the book did psychic healing and psychic surgery. She was certain she was doing it with the help of Jesus, and found out that that was a forgery.
I agree totally that what is needed is love, not hell and brimstone sermons. But at the same time, when you grow to care about someone, you want to try and help them to find the truth. Hey, I want to be friends through eternity.
Another interesting reading is the book of Revelation, it is just a few chapters, but if you read it, you will recognize much of what is going on in the world today. I just want to see you have a happy ending too. We have suffered too much to suffer more.
You are special to me. Can’t wait to hear what you feel about statistics, I found it rather challenging when I took the course.
Love,
Heather
Ok Whispers, first of all, please stop using the word denotatively. We get it, you learned a new word today and want to use it in every other sentence.
Second, the word murder can be used as a verb in which case it can mean “to slaughter wantonly” or to “slay”, a very acceptable way of describing abortion in my opinion.
Next your views on religion are themselves religious in nature. You say all religions are valid, but this is a religious statement since you take that on faith. You say that all religions provide something valuable to the practitioner as though religion is only for the practitioner. What about the simple idea that religion is about worshipping God irrespective of whether we receive anything in the process.
Next you suggest that Christians are narrow-minded, but the perspective from which you judge this is biased. You expect people of any religion to tolerate all religions in a way that accepts those religions as “valid”. But that form of tolerance is your religion, not ours. It’s the religion of the neo-pagans. In ancient times pagans tolerated every form of religion except that of the Christians and Jews. That was because Christianity and Judaism were inherently intolerant to paganism in that they suggested that no salvation was possible via paganism, making them “invalid”.
You ask the question why the need for missions. Well because missions are a part of our religious beliefs. Our founder, Jesus Christ commissioned us to do it. We believe in missions for the same reason you don’t, it’s a religious ideology. Can you, in your open-minded world tolerate that or do you only tolerate different flavors of paganism that in the end aren’t really different at all. Does the religion of tolerance tolerate the religions of the intolerant?
You asked this question “You want people to abandon their faith and take up yours?” The answer: Jesus is only interested in the ones the Father has given him. God doesn’t have to prove himself, there are enough people who will believe apart from this kind of self-centered, prove-it-to-me-God attitude.
You suggest that the trinity means we don’t worship one God. In the Bible, the original Hebrew the word “one” (numerical one) is never used to describe God. The verse that says “The Lord our God is one God” uses for the word “one” a word in Hebrew which means “perfect unity”. The same word is used for example to say “the people spoke with one voice”. Now, as to the trinity, if you look throughout the Bible, God often revealed himself in the form of three. Three men that met Abraham, the name “I am(1)-who(2)-I am(3)”, etc. By the way, Jesus referred to himself as the “I am”, the meaning of which did not escape the jews of his time since they tried to stone him for using it. And afterall, aren’t we “created in the image of God” and isn’t man one-in-three as well. Every person has a body, soul, and spirit. A human being cannot live without all three parts. That is why the Bible describes us has having new bodies after these have worn out. We were created as 3-in-1 beings, shockingly I know, just like God. If you still didn’t get it: God is 3-in-1, Man is 3-in-1.
Finally, as to the question of the divinity of Christ, well on this point you are very ignorant. Read the Bible cover to cover and you will discover that the whole thing is about Jesus our Emanuel (God with us). If God did not become man and die for our sins then we have no hope no matter how many tries we get at it.
Hagana, there is no need to be abusive in your posts on my site. Jesus spoke the truth with love. His harsh words were kept for the scribes and Pharisees.
Sarcasm, tearing apart, and meanness is not an effective tool for reaching others for Christ. You may want to consider what your purpose is in tearing down others. Are you trying to prove a point or are you really trying to reach the ones that need Christ?
I grew up with abuse. I was beaten for not reading the Bible right. It did not increase my love for God. My sister-in-law and her family attacked our family with the same sorts of words you are using , it produced an abhorence of born again Christians. When I got saved, it was through loving intervention, and I have only been showing my husband obedience and love, not preaching at him. He is now attending the same Bible study that pulled me in. Had I started picking apart his statements and pointing out the error of his ways I would have put a wedge between Him and God. I would not want to be accountable to God for that.
There is a fine line between speaking the truth in love, and speaking the truth. God wants it spoken in love.
Heather
I’m glad you can tolerate mine. Freedom of religion. It’s a beautiful thing.
) I’m glad to hear your approach to religion is different… indeed, I respect your approach. You respect what I believe while also noting what you do… without being arrogant, patronizing, or abusive. I appreciate that.
I understand the desire to share the faith that has brough much happiness/fulfillment to your life… it’s just a little strange to me how missionary it is. I don’t know. I guess I prefer the approach of other religions, that aren’t out to get more people (though I understand Christians do so because they want to save souls and all) but have a more… take it if it applies to you, leave it if it doesn’t. Do you know what I mean? I’m not sure I’m conveying my sentiment correctly.
You’re right — there IS only so much condemning. I’m sorry your sister-in-law and family treated you so, regardless of decision. I wish they had shown you more compassion and love… which would have been more representative of the good bits of Christianity.
I agree that a relationship with divinity is more important than a religion…esp since that’s just a way to sharing a belief in similar earthly ideals, not divinity.
Thanks for the recommendation.
Hehe, friends though eternity. The thing is, you don’t KNOW that you’re right even if you feel you are. None of us do. (Unless one of us has already died and came back to life.) Certainly, I think NDE are characterized by bright, white light… and not all those are Christians or accept JC as their savior. Just a thought ?
But then we get into issues because of fundamental differences in belief. You believe in One Truth, in Jesus Christ as that truth, right? I believe in many truths, so we can’t really agree there.
I’m glad you hold the ideals you do so firmly, however.
Heh, stats. Eek. I wonder how it’ll go too.
All right, now Hagana. Hehe, you’re funny. You see… if you had read what I wrote, I wouldn’t need to use the word so often.
Of course murder is a verb too. To kill (another human) unlawfully. Number one definition, no?
“Next your views on religion are themselves religious in nature. You say all religions are valid, but this is a religious statement since you take that on faith. You say that all religions provide something valuable to the practitioner as though religion is only for the practitioner. What about the simple idea that religion is about worshipping God irrespective of whether we receive anything in the process.”
Your comments make little sense. Did I ever say I made non-religious comments? I’m aware that religion extends beyond theocentric faiths like yours and Eastern faiths to atheism and agnosticism as well. Though you seem to think I’m a neo-Pagan. I’m not sure where you got that from but okay. All religions are valid. What about the simple idea that perfection doesn’t need anything from imperfection? What about the simple idea that maybe you look past your arrogance long enough to consider that maybe divinity doesn’t NEED you to worship it? What exactly do you think you do for divinity, what need of its do you fulfill by worshipping, by going to church and singing songs and reading the Bible aloud?
Religion is simply a way of sharing a belief in EARTHLY ideals, not a belief in divinity. As according to Webster’s vest pocket dictionary, religion is “a system of belief, order of worship”. I thought my professor’s definition of it was intriguing: “a process of seeking and responding to that which is experienced as holy/sacred/divine.” What is holy? “That which is the source or origin of pattern, order, and meaning in the universe”. That he made it EXPERIENCED as holy makes religion subjective, and provides a flexible definition applicable to many systems of belief. He also maintained religion was “a process of encoding this experience in the form of myths, symbols, and rituals and transmitting them from generation to generation (tradition)”. And finally, spirituality quite simply as the “personal relationship with the divine”, different from religion in that the latter is an activity, an attempt at tying, binding, or connecting with each other on productivity.
Note the lack of reference to a god or higher power in both definitions.
After all, if religion was about divinity, atheism couldn’t be a religion, now could it?
Actually, I changed my mind. I am saying Christians are narrow-minded. But in the sense of stigmatism, rather than for the negative sentiments it may elicit. It is true. Christians acknowledge that. Belief in one truth, one way is a narrow-minded one. It lacks a breadth of view, and that makes it narrow-minded. Fact.
I do not EXPECT anyone to do anything. Two rules in life: 1) We all have free will. 2) Never expect anything from anyone, because in doing so you strip them of what makes them human. FREE WILL.
So I don’t expect you to be tolerant of every different view. I am not tolerant of genocide. I am not tolerant of discrimination against homosexuals. So obviously I am not advocating tolerance of every single thing. But I would hope you’d learn to have respect for a different view whether you agree with it or not. I respect that you hold the beliefs you do. You should learn to respect that I hold different ones.
I wondered why there was such a need to try to strip others of their beliefs to make them conform to yours. Why people can’t be allowed to worship in the way they wish to. I said nothing about not respecting the belief you hold. Read more carefully. Religion is religion, so your religion ends up the same as ‘different flavors of paganism that in the end aren’t really different at all.’
Haha. Self-centered, prove-it-to-me-god attitude, eh? Tell me, do you think your approach works? Do you think you’re a good representative of the Christian faith? You take offense to my words and try to COMBAT them when you should be showing compassion and love. Those are major virtues your religion advocates, no?
Faith. Belief that doesn’t rest on logical proof or material evidence. In other words, you can’t prove it. You can only believe.
Try showing people god’s love, telling them about your life with him, instead of presenting negative ideology and condemning people to eternal flames.
What makes the soul different from the spirit? (Honest question) I grew up Catholic. I know that. Just as I know you believe humans were created in his likeness. Thank you for being condescending without adequate basis, however. It makes you really come off in a great light.
Furthermore, you didn’t answer the question. Your god is 3-in-1… but that’s still three manifestations of the same divinity. As Vishnu, Shiva, and Brahma of Hinduism. 3-in-1 indeed.
I’m not sure where the Christ thing came from, but okay. You forget. It is of no question to YOU because you BELIEVE. To the rest of the world, Jesus is another man. The Bible is far from inerrant anyway.
“Sarcasm, tearing apart, and meanness is not an effective tool for reaching others for Christ. You may want to consider what your purpose is in tearing down others. Are you trying to prove a point or are you really trying to reach the ones that need Christ?”
Exactly.
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