December 18, 2005

  • Friday Bible Study Continued – See 12/17 for part one.


    Pastor Leon Forte’ then added some comments which looked at things from a different perspective.


    We are spirits that live in a bodies and possess souls.


    There is a hierarchy in rulership:


    Slave – has no choice, can be right but even if right must still
                follow what his master orders.


    Servant- Always serves his master


    Master – Connected to the source


    BC (before Christ) our master was our flesh. The Servant was our thoughts, will and emotions, and the Slave was our unregenerated spirit, which followed the flesh desires.


    BC we could not receive what God was saying in our lives. It was like God was operating on an FM radio band and we were operating on the AM band (Note from Heather, I love this pastor’s ordinary examples which helps to make things clear).


    When we get Born Again, God takes the AM band of us and replaces it with FM. Christ processes the FM band and the Holy Spirit is like the graphic equalizer.


    When we get saved, the flesh is still the flesh and our mind (servant) is still the mind, but our Spirit now is regenerated.


    What has changed is the hierarchy – now the Spirit is the Master


    This happens once you get your BA (Born Again). Now our source is the Spirit realm. We have to acclimate our Soul (servant) to the change in hierarchy. It must learn to carry out the orders of the new boss – the Spirit.


    Romans 12: 1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.


    Jesus paid the bill for us, He did it for us. In our flesh is no good thing. With our renewed mind, we can begin to tackle strongholds. That is why it is so important to feed our minds with the Word of God, to fill it full so that we can take this hierarchy and put it in line with God’s plan for us.


    Pastor Don continued with:


    2 Cor: 10:3-6 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.


    Strongholds come up in our mind and lives, and keep us from seeing truth clearly, they keep us acting in the old patterns that are not in our best interests.


    We must cast down our imaginations and arguments, not listen to the lies from our minds, or respond to signals that we used to respond to.


    Strongholds put up filters that cause us to argue against Truth.


    Pastor Leon and Pastor Don said that we have to form a posse in our mind, and as we know more of the word of God, that posse grows stronger. Satan will put thoughts into our minds that are tailor made to our weaknesses, causing us to doubt, fear, or not trust in God. We must capture with our posse those thoughts and replace them with Truth. We must capture anything that doesn’t line up with Christ.


    Pastor Leon used this computer language example.


    We must download the Word of God onto our Hard Drive (the Spirit), from the Disk (the Word of God), and then pull it up on our screen (our Mind), and also send it to the printer (our mouth).


    The Key to having something up on the screen is to be downloaded and saved in the hard drive. To access it, we use the mouse (spirit). Many of us know the Word and the thoughts, but we can have the information, the question is, who is in control of the mouse? Is it our Spirit or is it the Flesh?


    Which side are you acting on – the you that was BC (before Christ) or BA (born again)?


    Any prophesying that we do must come from the word that is in us. If we have little word, we will be unable to prophesy much.


    Pastor Don said that to act on faith, we have to kill a giant today.


    Our GIANT is being stuck in a place that we are comfortable with. Defending our mind, will and emotions. And we are not willing to own up to the powerful declarations we are making.


    If we find a Giant in our lives, and speak the truth about it, but believe that we cannot battle this giant and win, we are calling God a liar.


    Back to our Numbers 13 example.


    Numbers 13:27 – they spoke the truth about the fruit,


    But, Numbers 13:28-29 they expressed doubt (nevertheless)


    Verse 30 Caleb was able to believe the Spirit of God, and state boldly that these giants were weak and would be defeated.


    Verse 32 but the 10 spies according to King James Version gave an evil report. It was evil because it did not line up with what God said.


    We have to stop excusing as OK our words of doubt and unbelief when we are looking through a soulish filter.


    God is not pleased with our words of doubt and unbelief, He wants us to Believe Him.


    We must catch ourselves quickly when we do this, and when we add a negative opinion, we must replace it with something in line with God’s word. It dishonors God when we express thoughts of doubt and unbelief. Often we express these doubts before we have even consulted God about the situation.


    It is true that we will have what we say, so we need to be more careful of what we say.


    It also has the problem of hurting the Body of Christ and the Church for it sows seeds of doubt and unbelief in others’ minds as well.


    The battle is a question of Authority. Who has authority, God or our Flesh.


    You must discern the facts from the TRUTH


    It is a fact – there are giants


    But the Truth is that God told the Israelites that they would possess the land.


    In Numbers 14:9 Joshua and Caleb spoke the truth when they said, “Only do not rebel against the LORD, nor fear the people of the land, for they are our bread, their protection has departed from them, and the LORD is with us. Do not fear them.”


    The Israelites wanted to stone Joshua and Caleb. When we speak the truth (the FM self) the AM self will want to stone us, to do anything to prevent us from acting on what we know God is saying.


    To battle our giants we have to ask God for discernment. To ask, who is this giant, what does he want, where did he come from.


    Sometimes the negative person with their belief will seem stronger than the person with real authority. But we have to stick with real authority, for it will last longer and please God. It is only with real authority that we will gain our victory.


    As it says in Romans 4:17 “…God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did.”


    Most people are praying for their breakthroughs. They seem to forget that a breakthrough is a violent assault on the enemy, and you only get it if you aggressively attack what is holding you back.


    We cannot compromise and accept verbiage filled with doubt and unbelief. We cannot justify this verbiage. We will be held accountable for every idle (idol) word spoken.


    Many pastors have turned a bedside manner of gentleness into spiritual compromise. It is important to guide those to the truth and combat the erroneous thoughts.


    You can’t control what you hear, but you can control how you hear it. You do not have to accept bad reports in your life as truth.


    As Pastor Don’s father said, you can’t control the birds in the air, but you can control which birds land and build a nest.


    When we get knowledge of the Word, satan can only affect us by causing us to feel guilt, and an inability to do battle, but these are lies. Satan has lost a long time ago, and he just tries to get us to line up with his lying thoughts.


    We must examine where we are thinking negatively, recognize the patterns, and rebuke the negative thoughts.


    Many times the bad that happens in our lives is not because we are under a curse, but because we haven’t reversed or negated our negative tongues.


    We must acknowledge our negative thinking, counter it, not accept it, reverse it, and after a while we will not be speaking those negative things.


    It is the responsibility of the people in the pews to kill the spirit of religion. It is our responsibility to be Calebs and Joshuas. To defend the truth no matter what.


    A question came up about which battles we should speak up about with those in our lives. And it came out that we need to pick and choose our battles, no one is perfect, and we all have areas that we need to work on.


    We need each other in the church – that is why it is called fellowship – we need all the other fellows in the ship. We have to get beyond the stereotypes. We get grace free from God, Faith is the currency of Heaven.  We should be careful what we spend it on.


    Another question had to do about when a person brings a truth to someone and they don’t receive the truth? It was brought out that it is important to speak the truth, but there was also on the person speaking a filter that they felt that when they speak a truth the other person should receive it. The truth is, that is not always what happens. And it is up to the person who spoke the truth, to rest in the speaking of the truth, and not get hurt or upset because it is not received the way they think that it should be received. That they need to find out the stronghold in themselves that requires that others accept their words as truth.


    Mark 11:22-28 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God. For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says..”


    We really must be careful of what we say.


    I asked, that there is some concern in my heart for the name it/claim it sorts of statements because what I really want in my life is what is God’s best for me, so I want to make sure that what I ask for is what God wants for me.


    I was told it boils down to discernment. That we must pray that God will give us the discernment. Finally this clicked in my mind, often I pray without first coming to God to know what I should pray about. I had the process reversed. There is nothing wrong with going to God and sorting out the issues, so that you know what must be prayed about, then praying with discernment.


    What an awesome God we serve that He brings people into our lives to clarify tough issues.


    Tomorrow I will start writing about the teaching Pastor Forte’ taught on Friday Night, it knocked my socks off.


    Have a blessed night!

Comments (18)

  • Thanks for sharing your notes.

  • You know,

    you take good notes

    I like the analogy of the AM to FM…

    very interesting!

  • [The Key to having something up on the screen is to be downloaded and saved in the hard drive. To access it, we use the mouse (spirit). Many of us know the Word and the thoughts, but we can have the information, the question is, who is in control of the mouse? Is it our Spirit or is it the Flesh?]

    In my way of thinking the control of the mouse would be our will… meaning that we have an obligation to walk according to the spirit not according to the flesh from Gal 5:16,24-25 and Romans 8:2-8 (your thoughts?)

    this guys got some great analogies and made me reconsider many things…

  • Great message and the way he spread it. Kudos for you for such great notes and paying attention! And thanks for stopping by and sharing a personal view. As I said in my preface, I wasn’t sure where to class Wicca. I was just responding with information that the other party could read and determine for herself. I didn’t feel right in posting that on her site. Rather let her be led to mine. I couldn’t even begin to tell you where I saw it, either. Was jsut a random link.

  • “There is nothing wrong with going to God and sorting out the issues, so that you know what must be prayed about, then praying with discernment.”

    This is such a great statement, and something I needed to hear today, thanks!

  • You do take some amazing notes.  Remind me to invite you wherever I speak next.. lol

    Something I would take issue with is that we are spirits.  I just dont see that in the word.  God breathed into man and he became a living soul.  Jesus is the lover of our soul, not our spirit.  It’s important because if you don’t see that your soul is the only part of you with it’s own personality then you get into craziness when you deal with mental disorders and even day by day problems. 

    Small thing I know.. but big to me.. thanks for letting me share.  ;D

    M- 

  • Hi Mark, perhaps you may want to consider Hebrews 4:14 “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

    In this God divides soul and spirit. Yes, Jesus does love our souls (mind will and emotion) He had to have loved them enough to die for us and our sins, but once we become saved, our spirits link up with Christ, and it is that that must order our lives. And I suspect that each of our spirits are individual. Problem with the soul, with the thoughts, feelings and our will is that it is so changeable, often due to circumstances in our lives, and the soul often makes decisions based on what is experienced in the flesh. The Spirit is linked up with the true source, which is God. We would do well to trust the Spirit over the soul. Just a thought ;)

  • wilderness child, I suspect that your interpretation of the mouse would work in the analogy too.

    Heather

  • Heather, you are always so peaceful in your replies.. thank you for that. 

    Sancification is the process of the mind being renewed.  There is nothing “spirit” about that, it’s 100% soul. 

    Your Spirit does indeed become one with God’s but I believe that happens when one is born again, not when one is saved.  Remember, only the human Soul can be saved.  The Human Spirit is what is born a second time.  Seeing the difference in those two terms is what I get out of Hebrews 4:12.

    about 4 centuries of sloppy theology has made “saved” and “born again” into the same thing but the human soul can not be “born again” and the human spirit can not be “saved”.  Only the soul can be saved and only the Spirit can be Born again.

    Thanks again for letting me ramble a bit.  ;D

    M-

  • hey…thanks for coming by. love to you….

  • Dear Mark, While sanctification might occur in the soul for it involves our mind, will and emotions I think it would be fair to say that it could never occur without the grace of God. Most of our realization of the need of salvation comes from our realization that we cannot continue what we are doing and make things right with God, that we need a savior. That our own will-power, our own strength cannot produce change, that we need Jesus to help us to change. The awareness of that need comes from the Spirit (the Holy Spirit which speaks to our spirit). It is our spirit that clues our conscience that we need a savior. And, since Hebrews talks about dividing spirit and soul with the Word, it seems that it would be safe to imply that before we get Word into us, our spirit and soul are rather closely joined, joined enough to have the need to be separated.

     I would love to know what Bible verses you are using to support your theory about being saved and being born again. Thanks!

    Heather

  • I hope not to muddy the waters but the concepts of soul and spirit and mind and heart…. etc. have always caused me trouble. I have come to the conclusion that man is simply two parts – an outer man and an inner man.

    I say this because where do you draw the line? Take this verse for example (Heb 4:12 ) and one could conclude that we have at least two parts soul and spirit and then logically on his own could look in the mirror and say, “Hum, I can’t deny I have a body.” The he comes across 1 Thess. 5:23 and he confirms his visual observation in the mirror… and so now he is three parts. Later on in his spiritual journey he stumbles onto Mark 12:30 and says, “Okay… I knew I had a soul, spirit and body, but this says I have a mind and a heart and strength that are different than my soul.” Now maybe he concludes that his strength is his body but none the less he now has at least 5 parts… feeling somewhat trouble at this point with his understanding of man he begins to question… what is man? and decides to study what the Scriptures have to say about it. And in his study he finds that the same word for soul and spirit and mind is used interchangeably in both the OT and the NT… now he’s really confused… Then later on down the “road” he comes to grips with the fact that the Scriptures tell him that Chist is in him… and then what about the Spirit he says, “Did he replace my spirit? Is he another part of who I am?”

    I just find it much less confusing to say that I have an inner man (which encompasses: my will, emotions, mind, heart, soul, spirit, all non-physical stuff, etc.) and I have an outer man (which encompasses: my body, my brain, my strength, my health, and all other physical stuff, etc.)

    They may not help anyone but that’s where I’m at…

    So when I look at this verse in Hebrews, I see the writer trying to convey that God’s Word can bring conviction (see verse 13) to bring us to obedience and into God’s rest (see verse 11). It is so good at convicting… so living and active and sharp that it can pierce into things that were humanly impossible to distinguish.  (soul and spirit; bones and marrow; thoughts and intentions – a present day wording might describe things that we now think are impossible to distinguish: electrons and other things we can see with microscopes) Point being it’s going to split you wide open… and it’s going to lay your whole being bare before God with no possible way to keep anything hidden from his sight. Everything will become naked and exposed and we will have to give an account for all that is revealed. (and everything will be revealed – including my intentions!!!) This is why the writer goes on to speak of our great high priest. The larger context of this passage seems to point towards those who are currently outside of God’s rest (which I’m under the impression this is salvation). Later in this passage he goes onto encourage them to approach the throne of grace with confidence in our time of need because we have a great high priest who was perfect and without sin… yet he can sympathize with whatever your weakness was that was exposed from the splitting open of God’s word because he was tempted in everyway and yet without sin.

    WE MUST HOLD FAST TO THIS CONFESSION FOR APART FROM CHRIST WE ARE DOOMED FOR WE MUST GIVE ACCOUNT!

    This is the jealousy of God that I’m talking about… it was displayed in power in the Old Testament… it was revealed in person in Jesus Christ… and it is to infect the to the very core of the believer both in the NT and now that we might be zealous for good works!

    I cry out to you, O LORD!!! Fill me anew with your Spirit for my conscience is not yet tender. I continue to hold onto this wayward will. Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxious thoughts and my carnal intentions. Consume me in the refiner’s fire, for I long to be holy – set apart for you LORD! Lead me in the way everlasting. AMEN!

  • hadn’t planned on writing all that… anyway heather I commented back to your response on my xanga… I love the interaction and it benefits my thinking greatly! In fact it inspired another concept for a metaphor that might help to descibe how God’s attributes to be viewed in action. As Mark said you are very gracious in your replies.

    thanks again… hope the above post didn’t wear out my welcome… I got a little “preachy”. These verses just came to mind. Forgive me if I have been quarrelsome

    “So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.” 2 Timothy 2:22-26 (ESV)

  • Thanks for asking.  *grin*  This is an portion from a writing I did in 2003 on this very subject.  By Xanga standards it is very long but by it is only a part of the entire writing, the part I feel will best answer your questions here.

    ________________________

    Consider this…God is three parts; Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Everyone is created in the image of God (Gen 1:26, 27) so we also have three parts; a body, a soul and a spirit.
     
    Lets first look at the Human Body…. Your human body is just a shell; an earth suit that allows your soul to exist on this planet. Gen 3:19 says “By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.” More proof of the human body’s cursedness is in Psalms 90:3 that says ” You turn man back into dust And say, “Return, O children of men.” In the midst of this helplessness of the Human Body’s condition comes the wonderful promise of a new body. Paul writes in 1Cr 15:47 ”The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.” Also see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and 2 Corinthians 5:6 on the human body.
     

    For the person that has never been Born Again, their Human Spirit can be likened to the egg of the woman. It’s alive (if it wasn’t, it couldn’t reproduce) but if nothing ever happens it will eventually fall off into permanent separation from the woman never again being able to conceive a new life.  By the same token the spirit of the human is alive but like the egg, it abides in a state of death within us and if there is no conception via the seed of the Word, it too will pass off into eternity and ultimately back to the God who made it. This is very clear in Ecclesiastes 12:7.

    Also, in the first part of John 3, Nicodemos came to Jesus by night admitting to Him privately that he believed that God was with Him.  Nicodemos was really saying “Hey, we know your of God because of the incredible things you do, yet I keep the law myself so what am I missing here?  Jesus perceived Nicodemos’ actual question and answered it in verse 3 by saying unless one is Born Again they cannot see the Kingdom of God. Nicodemus wasn’t asking Jesus about getting his soul saved for Nicodemus was already saved under the old covenant. In fact, later in the conversation Jesus would deal with basic salvation of the human soul (John 3:14 – 21).
     
    Nicodemos made the same mistake that a lot of the church world makes today in verse 4 by thinking that Jesus is talking about something to do with the human body or the human soul. That’s why he asked Jesus how he could enter a second time into his mother’s womb. In verse 5 Jesus attempts to bring more clarity as he draws an even bigger line between the soul and the spirit by adding “unless you are born or water (your body coming forth from your mother with her water breaking) AND of Spirit (your human spirit being born a second time into the Kingdom) you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    We see here in John 3 that “Going to Heaven” and “Entering the Kingdom of God” are two completely different things. To enter the Kingdom of Heaven, you simply need your Soul saved and that is done as you believe with your mind and heart that Jesus has paid the price you could not pay for yourself and trust that His blood covers your sins.  However, to enter the Kingdom of God (not the kingdom of Heaven, but the Kingdom of God) while still in your human body there is something required of your Human Spirit that is not required of your Body or Soul. You can’t only believe in Jesus with your soul but your Human Spirit must also be Born Again!

    1 Corinthians 6:17 says that the one who joins himself to the Lord is one SPIRIT with Him. Not one body, not one soul but one SPIRIT with Him.  Romans 8:16 says the Holy Spirit Himself testifies with our Human Spirit that we are children of God.  When you are Born Again, the state of death that existed within you (from being born into sin) is broken by the Holy Ghost that has now joined with and become one with your Spirit. Your Human Spirit is now Fully Alive as it is now born into the Kingdom of God and not just into the earth. Being born into the earth was the first birth for the human Spirit.  As a side, it will never need any more of the Kingdom because from the instant your human Spirit is Born Again, it has it all in it’s fullness. Now, getting your Human Soul to see and know that is another thing entirely.

    Having said that, let me now talk about the Human Soul.  Your Soul is who you really are. It is your will, your emotions and your intent. It is best described in the Bible (and here) as “your mind” or “heart”.  Your soul can only take input from two sources; Your Flesh (that as we said earlier is born into sin) OR your Human Spirit (that is in a state of death until it is Born Again). For the purpose of this writing, from here on out, let’s assume your Spirit IS Born Again.
     
    You now have the choice to take your leading from your flesh or your Spirit. This is illustrated in Romans 8:6-9 ”For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you”

    Perhaps the greatest challenge for most believers is to get their minds (souls) to surrender to the Spirit of God within them and to stop taking direction from their fallen flesh. The ONLY way this happens is thru what the Bible calls the renewing of the mind thru the process called Sanctification.

    Thanks for reading,

    M-

  • I understand where wildernesschild is coming from that there is “an inner self and an outer self”.  It does get a bit challenging to grasp it all at times.  I personally feel the whole concept is one of many “mysteries of God” that the Lord Himself needs to show each heart in His perfect time.  That is why I wrote this out in 2003 and have used it maybe 4 times since then. 

    I will say this too, there is obviously a hunger for the spirit of understanding to come and visit, and that is usually a good thing.

    M-

  • Merry Christmas to you, Heather! May the Lord continue to draw your heart to His and reveal more of Himself to you, as you surrender more of your heart to Him. May the Light that is the hope of the world draw others to Him through your yielding. Blessings to you! ysi-Grace

  • Please how do i acess pastor Leon’s other messages? i am really fascinated by his teachings. God bless you.

  • @ilasang - The only ones that I have are the ones listed under his name on the left “links” column.  Click on his name, and there will be a list of the sermons I heard and took notes on.  Just click on the sermon title and it should bring you to the sermon.  Other than that, you may be able to contact him at his church and I am assuming that he has a tape ministry.

    Heather

Post a Comment

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *