July 14, 2005
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Finally, I get a few minutes on the computer!!!!!!
This is notes from the last day of the prophesy conference, then I will update on the Bible studies.
Events that benchmarked the moral decline of our country.
free sex
drug usage
voice of anarchy (no one has the right to tell me what to do)
Sometimes the value of the one is more important than the value of the group. Now the input of the group is valued more than one person. We are going to have to make a decision as to whether the group is more valuable than the one. (an example would be the group of Israelites that spoke out against Jesus – the one)
In the 1960′s everything was thrown up in the air.
The 1963-64 had the Bible removed from the educational system., they took out the Bible and the reading of the word.
In the index of social health, the year after the abortion decision, our health has deteriorated.
Premarital Sex 1963 is when it began to spike, and from there it skyrocketed.
Violent Crime 1960-64 violence began to spike.
Violent Crime spiked.
Before 1963, SAT scores had to be very high to get into college, since then colleges have significantly dropped their standards.
Sexually Transmitted diseases . In the 60′s one out of four girls had some kind of sexually transmitted disease before graduation, now 40% have a sexually transmitted disease.
There is a price to pay for the kind of freedom we now have. Freedom without responsibility leads to chaos.
And now the diseases that we battled back then are mutating, and there are more, that are harder to cure.
Leviticus 18: 24-28 Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it and the land vomits out its inhabitants. You shall therefore keep My statues and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abomination, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you (for all these abominations the men of the land have done who were before you, and thus the land is defiled, lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
What we do to the Earth and to our bodies (which is the temple of God) irresponsibly will have ramifications. Sexually transmitted diseases is one ramification of unbridled lust, that could last a lifetime. Many of the diseases are incurable.
Today there is another major problem in those 60 or older living in nursing homes, the highest number of sexually transmitted disease among the residents.
Pastor Don showed a chart about how different people viewed what was morally acceptable behavior. It was based on a survey of 1024 adults. and the groups were the Mosaics (18-19 year olds) Busters (20-38 years old) Boomers and Elders. This is a study done by Barna
This is the percent of those who felt that the behavior was acceptable.
Gambling - Mosaics 75% Busters 67% Boomers 60% Elders 51%
living with
opposite sex “ 75% “ 72% “ 60% “ 41%
Abortion ” 55% ” 48% “ 46% 36%
sex without
planning to
marry with
opposite sex “ 54% “ 56% “ 40% 24%
pornography “ 50% “ 48% “ 38% 23%
profanity “ 60% “ 49% “ 30% 20%
getting drunk “ 50% “ 48% “ 33% 15%
sex with someone
of same sex “ 40% “ 41% ” 32% 14%
non prescription
drug use “ 20% “ 22% “ 16% 12%
What is scary is another Barna study that asked the question whether or not the Resurrection is a historical event.
This is the percentage of people who DO NOT believe it is a historical event
Lutherans 13%
Presbyterians 30%
Am. Baptist 33%
Episcopal 35%
Methodists 51%
How can we expect in the last days to have a moral code passed down from generation to generation with such deterioration, and a rampant denial of the Biblical truths?
Pastor Don then spent some time going through a list of how many qumran manuscripts of the books of the Old Testament are available to compare with modern translations. There are significantly more manuscripts of the Bible than any other historical document, and of the manuscripts, when compared to present day texts, there are only 17 small errors of punctuation.
Pastor Don pointed out that there are many views as to when the Rapture will take place.
There is the Pre Tribulation rapture. This occurs after the Church age and before the 7 years of Tribulation prophesied in Revelation.
There is the Post Tribulation rapture, this occurs after the 7 year tribulation and before the Millineal reign.
And then there is the Mid-tribulation rapture, that occurs 3 1/2 years after the 7 year tribulation period occurs.
The word rapture does not appear as such in the Bible, but there are references that speak about the rapture.
Pastor Don said, the reality is, whether or not you believe in the rapture, God will do what He plans to do no matter what you believe. (Gravity is still in effect even if you don’t believe in gravity.)
Here are some of the scriptures that speak of the rapture and the second coming of Christ if you want to search them out.
John 14: 1-3 Romans 8: 19 1 Cor. 1:7-8 1 Cor. 15:51-53
1 Cor. 16:22 Phil. 3:20-21 Phil. 4:5 Col 3:12 1 Thes 1:10
1 Thes 2:19 1 Thes 4:13-18 1 Thes 5:9 1 THes 5:23
2 Thes 2:1 2 Thes 2:3 1 Tim 8:14 2 Tim. 4:1 Heb 9:28
James 5:7-9 Jude 22 Revelation 2:15, Revelation 3:10, and the whole book of Revelation.
Daniel 2:44-45; 7:9-14; 12:1-3
Zecheriah 12:10; 14:1-5
Matt. 13:41; 24:15-31; 26:64
Mark 13:14-27; 14:52
Luke 21:25-28
Acts 1:9-11; 3:19-21
1 Thes 3:13
2 Thes 1:6-10; 2:8
1 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 14-15
Rev. 1:7
Rev. 19:11-20; chapters 6, 22, 7, 12, and 20
For us we can perceive of the rapture being an extra blessing.
The end days are about judgments. There are three types of judgments, the seals, the trumpets and the bowls.
The devil is not stupid. He hides the information about what is happening in plain sight. One example is that over many liqueur stores is the word “spirits”.
Pastor Don also pointed out some facts about the dollar bill that were covered previously, but added one new point. That on old Bills the eagle was surrounded by a glory cloud from God. In the new bills, clouds obscure the glory that surrounds the eagle.
One of the symbols of the new European Union is a woman riding a dragon (sounds a lot like a beast to us).
Belgium and France voted to reject the EU constitution. Blair and others know believe that the EU is necessary. Blair is taking over the EU temporarily until the constitution can be passed.
The EU has decided that their military has to be bigger, bolder, tougher to challenge the power of the US. Now in the news we hear about the Coalition, G7, GAT, and G8, Nato is history.
There is a mega computer, the world’s largest computer to keep data on everyone on the planet. It’s name is BEAST
B-Brussels
E-Electronic
A-Accounting
S-Surveillance
T-Terminal
There are now 14 computerized terminals in the system.
I have to stop here, but will finish the last day of the prophesy conference asap, we are almost done with my notes.
Heather
Comments (33)
just so that you can get some alternate Christian views on end time events, try the book Pocket Guide to the Apocolypse. It is available through http://www.relevantbooks.com in the relevant store…it is only like 6 or 7 bucks…it is excrusiatingly funny, and it presents a huge range of beliefs concerning end times professy. You might find it enlightening, you might hate it, but you will realize much about the interpretation of scriptures to different conclusions. Hope you find it helpful.
-Chris
Going to come back and read over this when I don’t have a time crunch happening! Glad to hear your back is feeling better!
I think they left out an important item in the list of contributors to the moral decay of our country. Like the increase in the number of parents that refused to discipline their children.
I am participating in a Beth Moore bible study on the fruit of the Spirit. This week we were talking about peace. She pointed out that to achieve true peace, it’s necessary to submit yourself to God’s authority. Without doing that, we generally will not behave in a manner that will bring true peace to our lives. She talked a bit about people who seem to enjoy contention, and actually make an effort to breed it–often because they enjoy the sense of power it gives them to be able to get a response out of people. She used an example of the control children can have over the family (used the description of a total of 400 pounds of family being controlled and pushed around by one 60 pound child).
I started thinking (I have been know to do that on occasion–haha) and drew the parallel to the family. I do not believe a family can achieve true peace without the children being made to submit to the authority of the adults. I think children (by nature) actually hunger for the peace that comes with discipline and having boundaries set for their behavior. I think if more parents did a better job of disciplining and teaching their children, we wouldn’t have the problems with moral decay we have today. or maybe the decline would just have been slower?
There will be a Rapture…it just won’t come until the Second Coming of Christ. That is the true posttribulationist view, as well as the view that the majority of Christians have held for the past 2,000 years. Heather, I’m pretty sure you incorrectly defined posttribulationism rapture (I think you were actually describing. Here’s a better definition:
posttribulationism: “The Second Coming and Last Judgment [and Rapture] will not occur until after a time of tribulation has been endured by the Church on earth. This belief is held by most Protestant denominations, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Catholic Church.” In other words, the Rapture and the Second Coming happen at the same time, not separate from each other.
and a little more…
Rapture: “From the Latin (Vulgate) word meaning ‘taken up’ or ‘caught up’, used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Generally it refers to the Second Coming of Christ. However, dispensationalists believe it refers to the sudden, secret, and silent removal of Christians from earth prior to (or in the middle of) the final Tribulation.”
lastly…
DID YOU KNOW? Dispensationalism (and this modern idea of the Rapture) is a “theological system formed in the 1830s by Plymouth Brethren leader John Nelson Darby and based upon the belief that God is pursuing two different works in history, one involving the Jews, and the other the Church.” And aside from the fact that it’s an idea that has only been around for less than 200 years, it’s also largely only an American phenomenon! (an example of this belief is the Left Behind book series)
My question is, does this sound like a universal Christian belief held from the time of the Apostles?
In the parantheses above I meant to say this:
“(I think you were actually describing all of this within the context of a premillennial dispensanionalist perspective–in other words, that there is a literal 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ after his return)”
Basically, I think that posttribulationists are much more likely to hold a view known as amillennialism (or even postmillennialism). Amillennialism is “…[t]he belief that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-7 refers to a time of fullness such as the current Church age and not a literal one-thousand-year period of time [after the Second Coming]. While amillennialists disagree about what the millennium is or will be, they do agree it will not be a future earthly reign.”
And posttribulationists definitely are not likely to hold the view of the Rapture that premillennialists/dispensationalists hold.
Even so, come Lord, quickly!
Just stopping by to say HI!!!!!
C Mcanall–
Dispinsationalism actually projects seven different works (or dispensations) not 2. There was the Adamic Dispensation, the Abramic Dispensation, the Mosaic/Levitical Dispensation, The Disppensation of The Judges, The Dispensation of the Kings, The Dispensation of Grace (in which we are presumed to live), and the Millinial Dispensation.
I think it is actually funny that the majority of Evangelical Amercan Christians are Pre-millinialist Dispensationalists, when Pre-mil theology was voted by the church to be heressy in the 4th Century AD, and Dispensationaism wasn’t even evented until the 19th Century.
Most ecclesiologists Chalk the stronghold of this belief system in America to the Scoffield Bible notes which became very pervasive in the US, especially among Fundamentalists….and Dallas Theological Semenary.
Just a little more food for thought.
Great notes. Can’t wait to read more!
A great book on the subject is “End Time Visions,” by Richard Abanes. He gives all the history of this, who thought it up, why, and how it has affected the modern church.
Also, I would like to know where your pastor got his first set of figures. I am usually up on all of this and have never seen the percentages he gives. Do you know the actual source?
Be careful as well in stating things like the Barna Survey. Not all Presbyterians nor Lutherans believe in those things because there are large branches from both which do not. It depends on which denomination of Lutheran or Presbyterian.
I’d heard much about the computer, but I didn’t know the name of it. It was concieved and created by a good friend and co-worker of Solana’s, btw. Suprise, suprise.
((hugs)) Thank you.
xo
This is the percentage of people who DO NOT believe it (resurrection) is a historical event
Lutherans 13%
Presbyterians 30%
Am. Baptist 33%
Episcopal 35%
Methodists 51%
sheesh!!!!!! how can they NOT believe!!!! so what happened to the body? the disciples, those scaredy cats. stole it???? when? where? how? i can see them now, dragging the body through the countrside and being followed by animals who love the smell! yeah riiiight! oh, so they think he swooned????? AND SUFFOCATED! so that’s out. so…..it was an imposter????? then the scaredy cATS WOULD HAVE SQUEALED LIKE MICE when they were threatened with death. it was an illusion????? sure fooled the death sentence crewmen.. . experts. so what is left……
resurrection.
plain and simple. so real that the ordinary men who followed Him went to unordinary deaths with bravery.
end of case.
church can be such a social circle……
Xpressionccr,
In regards to dispensionalist beliefs, I think the distinction you’re making of 7 dispensations is different from what I was referring to. I’m not talking about dispensations when mentioning how dispensationalists see God as pursuing two different works in history, one for Israel and one for the spiritual Church. Wikipedia explains it more clearly (note tenet #1 in excerpt below]:
======================================
[I]n addition to these dispensations [the 7 mentioned above by Xpressionccr], the real theological significance can be seen in four basic tenets which underlie classic dispensational teaching. Dispensationalism maintains:
(1) a radical distinction between Israel and the church, i.e. there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the spiritual church,
(2) a radical distinction between the Law and Grace, i.e. they are mutually exclusive ideas,
(3) the view that the New Testament church is a parenthesis in God’s plan which was not foreseen by the Old Testament, and
(4) a distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, i.e. the rapture of the church at Christ’s coming “in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17) precedes the “official” second coming by 7 years of tribulation.
======================================
As for your last two paragraphs on dispensationalism’s history, I completely agree with you. That’s what I was trying to point out above as well. I’m still curious as to what others (including Heather) think of this.
Of course, we could also get into numerous other issues with Christian history, such as the doctrine of Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (or Holy Communion). Many Protestants don’t believe in the real physical presence of Christ’s body and blood when receiving Holy Communion, yet this belief was unanimously held by Christians for at least the first nine centuries of Christianity, and it wasn’t seriously contested until the time of the Reformation.
“Brussels”??? Where does the “Brussels” come in in “BEAST”? That’s so random.
As for the rapture thing, I get sick and tired of people saying “OMG it’s going to happen SO SOON!!!” or “It won’t happen for at least another 100 years.” People…guess what? NO ONE knows when it’ll happen. As I recall, Jesus (when he was still on Earth) said that “Only the Father knows” when it will happen.
Regarding the pre, post etc. millennial dispensations, best I can say is that if you read the scripture, comparing scripture with scripture (more than one witness), and reading what Christ said, it seems clear to me. As to when it will happen, I am not walking around with a sign saying “the end is near”, but even Jesus wanted people to be aware of the signs of the times.
Best example of that is when he rode into Jerusalem on the ass, it was prophesied over 400 years earlier, and in many ways. He was astonished that the so-called spiritual leaders of the time did not recognize the date and time that was so clearly put in the scriptures they were to have written on their hearts.
When Jesus says that certain events are going to occur at the End Days, I am going to watch what is going on. He also said no one will know the time, but that the harvest is ripe and he needs reapers. So I will busy myself with the harvest, doing what I am to be doing, and yet keeping my lamp filled with oil and extra oil available, so that I am not taken by surprise when the Bridegroom comes.
I will try to get from Pastor Don the source of his data, and pass that on to you.
My sole (I had typed soul and that may be true) goal of these posts is to share what information I received at the conference. I am blessed by your comments, and pass them on to Pastor Don, who also is appreciating what you are sharing. See, he likes the questions, for he digs out more facts and information to add to his conferences, based on these questions as well. So you are not only edifying me by your questions and comments, but also Pastor Don and future conference attenders.
On the left of my site is a listing for In His Name Ministries. If you go there, you will see that he has tapes of his conferences if you choose to listen directly. Also he has done a chapter by chapter, verse by verse study of Revelation that is very detailed, also on tape. Some of these may be helpful to your reserach.
Hope you are staying cool in this summer, it is hot, hot, hot here.
Heather
The part about the beliefs of members of modern church is sad. Expected, but sad.
Thank you.
Love.
1 John 5:20
Heather, thanks again for the information. I’m glad you’re sharing this with Pastor Don, and that he is interested, for I’m interested in what he thinks too! I love good biblical and spiritual discussion.
If possible could I get some clarification on this statement of yours:
“Regarding the pre, post etc. millennial dispensations, best I can say is that if you read the scripture, comparing scripture with scripture (more than one witness), and reading what Christ said, it seems clear to me.”
If it ‘seems clear’, which belief do you prescribe to as being biblical? In the above post that started this discussion thread, you simply listed three different understandings, but didn’t say which one you or Pastor Don thought to be true.
Also, what notion of the “rapture” do you believe to be biblical: the one that has been around for 2,000 years (rapture is the taking up at the time of Christ’s Second Coming and after the tribulation), or the one that has been around for less than 200 years (rapture occurs before or during tribulation, and before millennium and Second Coming)?
I guess what I’m getting at is that we have a real pickle here, because sincere Christians on both sides read scripture yet disagree on what scripture says. This happens on all sorts of issues, not just the End Times. It’s also an issue with the Last Supper/Holy Communion. Some Christians sincerely believe in the Real Presence while others down. The difference here is huge: either Christ is physically present under the appearance of bread and wine (which is really His flesh and blood) or He is not physically present. That’s as big a deal as whether God came into the world in the flesh 2,000 years ago.
Another big issue is Baptism, where some think it really washes away our sins and others see it as merely symbolic. Determining which view is correct has an impact on our very salvation! The same goes with the whole ‘faith and works’ issue. I’m getting off topic now though, so I’ll stop rambling.
Btw, I completely agree that there is nothing wrong with being watchful for the Second Coming; in fact, I think we all should be!
Dear Chris, you seem to be reading experts on Revelation. But I think if you read the Bible with a few questions in mind, comparing scripture to scripture, it would be very edifying. One big question to ask yourself, is who is Jesus speaking to? Who are the disciples speaking to when they talk about end times stuff? Where is the church in the end times? There is a great study call Precept upon Precept -a study on Revelation. It compares scripture to scripture. You look up in concordances the meanings of the words, begin to draw up time lines using the Bible only as a source. It is a hard study because there are no opinions given by the author, and all views are covered. Takes about an hour a day to do the study. Might be interesting for you.
As far as Baptism and faith and works, I suspect that our views will differ, but right now I want to finish up the prophesy conference. Not branch off, but baptism does wash away sins and is not symbolic. And our work is to believe in Jesus (Jesus’ own words) as we believe in Him and love Him, and obey Him, what works we do will be pleasing to Him for they will be given in love. And as Jesus looks at the heart, that means the most (the widow and her two mites compared with those who followed the letter of the law and tithed to the grain of wheat). Jesus wants our love the most, and the works will follow as we love Him.
Heather
Hi,Heather
I just started a new series on my site called “Loving Our Wives”…..I’d be interested in your feedback!
Chet
ryc – i hope i have never cause a quaking in the boots!
My “bottom line” on the timimg of the Rapture: we are told we cannot know. (And that anyone who says specifically when is to be avoided.)
Either a Mid-Trib or Post-Trib rapture are precisely knowable, therefore they cannot be biblically accurate interpetations. Only the Pre-Trib Rapture would be an unpredictable date. Therefore, that is the only one that holds to a biblically accurate interpretation.
Also, the Bible says we who are born again are no longer subject to God’s wrath. The Tribulation is the outpouring of God’s wrath on a rebellious world. The only way we would be prevented from experiencing God’s wrath is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
The Bible is very clear on this – baptism does not wash away sins. Wow – need to study that one out more carefully as soon as the Prophecy conference is over. Leads down a slippery slope. Only the blood of Jesus Christ, which He shed on the cross on our behalf, washes away sins!!! And only once we have personally accepted that as true. When you are ready let me know and I will provide all the Scriptural support you need on this one.
P.S. – this baptism item is so important because believing in anything other than Christ’s sacrifice, or adding anything to it, be it baptism or speaking in tongues, what have you, is a w-o-r-k-s based salvation, which the Bible clearly denies.
Sorry to take up so much of your post with this, but too important to pass on . . .
Keep up the good effort!
Thanks!
Heather, thank you again.
I don’t have time for the Bible study you recommended, but it does sound interesting. Personally, I don’t merely read “experts” opinions. I too read scripture directly comparing it with itself, looking up Greek words, historical contexts, etc. (most of all praying throughout the process, of course!). But I also see nothing wrong with looking at the opinions of those who have more experience at this then me. In fact, I think this is absolutely necessary. Afterall, I have to completely trust the authority of the Catholic Church (and that it was guided by the Holy Spirit) in relying upon the NT canon, for there is no mere biblical way to prove which books should and shouldn’t belong in the New Testament. So looking to higher authorities and experts isn’t necessarily a bad thing in my opinion, but rather a necessity.
Besides, the very idea — that all you need is the Bible, yourself and the Holy Spirit as your guide — was one of Luther’s key tenets (“Sola Scriptura”), yet look at what has resulted since the Reformation. We have thousands upon thousands of denominations, all claiming to properly understand the meaning of the Bible, yet disagreeing in numerous ways. Where is the Christian unity in belief that Jesus prayed for so strongly in John 17, and Paul and the other Apostles pushed for so much in their stern warnings against errors in false teachings?
I highly recommend this article below for some in-depth reflection on the “clearness” of Scripture:
Dave Armstrong, “The Perspicuity (Clearness) of Scripture”, 1996.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040215053748/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ46.HTM
As for baptism and “faith and works”, I don’t know Heather, we may agree more than you think. But that discussion can wait until after these prophecy posts and dialogues are finished.
teelow22 said,
“Either a Mid-Trib or Post-Trib rapture are precisely knowable, therefore they cannot be biblically accurate interpetations.”
Ummm…how exactly are they knowable? I believe in a “posttribulation” rapture occuring at the same time as the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world. Yet I have no clue when any of this will occur. It seems to me like “posttrib” rapture is unpredictable as well, and thus meets your biblical standards. So what gives? Why toss it out as a possibility?
Perhaps because you also said…
“Also, the Bible says we who are born again are no longer subject to God’s wrath. The Tribulation is the outpouring of God’s wrath on a rebellious world. The only way we would be prevented from experiencing God’s wrath is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.”
But isn’t it more likely that the wrath of God simply refers to eternal punishment? Afterall, Christ does say, “I do not pray that thou [the Father] shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one” (Jn 17:15), and, “In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world” (Jn 16:33). Yes, we are saved from spiritual death, but this doesn’t mean we won’t experience any physical or emotional distress while on earth. And clearly Paul and other Christians suffer some pretty harsh “tribulations” (even death and martyrdom), so why can’t Christians experience this tribulation period at near the End Times? Your argument doesn’t make sense to me.
Maybe I don’t understand you correctly, but I think you need to better explain yourself, also giving biblical backing for your position.
Hey there. Just stopping by to let you know that I am thinking of you and wondered how you are doing. I find your studies interesting, but my strong points are not in debates like this. I tend to have a pretty solid view of what I believe, and I love to learn more, but I get flustered easily in a debate setting. Just wanted you to know why I don’t comment on them much. There seem to be others who are much better at that sort of thing.
How ARE you doing. Honestly now….
I hope you are enjoying your summer…
(((((hugs)))))) Marlene
Of course baptism is not a prerequisite for the washing away of sins, it is only confessing Jesus, but baptism is an outward manifestation of an inward process. Obviously it is not necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross did not get baptised, but even Jesus underwent baptism in obedience. It is only necessary to confess that Jesus is the son of God, that He died for our sins, and was resurrected. To confess with our mouth. But, my baptism sure helped me to fully comprehend the wonderful work that Jesus did, but I did not see it as a work, just a wonderful gift.
Heather
That George Barna does some pretty interesting research.
I am wondering…it is true that the Bible says WHAT will happen and not HOW, but does that mean that we should not try to stop the polluting of the Earth? Yes, in their ignorance and greed, humans are despoiling the creation that God was so pleased with…do you think that it is all part of the plan? How can an evil act (wantonly ruining the Earth) bring about a divine end (the Rapture or second coming)? Just wondering.
Thank you for your sweet comment on my blog. I wish that we saw more eye-to-eye on matters of the Spirit.
Heather, I agree that baptism is not necessary in all cases, but would you agree with me that it is part of God’s normative way of working out salvation in us? In other words, would you agree that normally, by God’s grace working in baptism, we are cleansed of our state of original sin, as well as our personal sins, if we are above the age of reason (for a little child cannot commit any personal sin, because it must be intentional).